MB late war 2 inch trumpet Auto Lite horn

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
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Fred Coldwell
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MB late war 2 inch trumpet Auto Lite horn

Post by Fred Coldwell » Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:05 am

The following evidence strongly suggests to me some MB jeeps were built with short trumpet Auto Lite brand horns during July and August 1945.

W/O part # A-17715 is for an Auto Lite horn model HA-033 or, optionally, a Sparks Withington [Sparton] horn model B-10539. A-17715 was released for production on or about 7-9-45. This statement is based on W/O PRF (Production Release Form) for A-17717, the horn bracket spacer for horn bracket A-17716 which were both used with horn A-17715. The PRF for A-17717 is the "1st issue" of that PRF, which means is it shows the first date on which that part was released for production, hence the 7-9-45 date for the initial release for production. The PRF I have for horn bracket A-17716 is dated 7/23/45, but that is a "2nd issue" PRF that was amended on 7-23-45 for that part. The "1st issue" date is not listed on a subsequently amended PRF, so finding an unamended 1st issue date PRF such as the one for for A-17717 is a rare and telling event.

There may be a time gap before or after the date a part was "released for prodution" and the date when that part first appeared on production vehicles. I am not claiming all MBs built on and after 7-9-45 used Auto Lite horn HA-033 or, alternatively, a Sparton B-10539 horn. I'm only saying the production line was authorized to install Auto Lite horn HA-033 or Sparton horn B-10539 on some MBs built during July and August 1945.

Horn A-17715, horn bracket A-17716 and horn bracket spacer A-17717 were also all used on early CJ-2A jeeps beginning at s/n CJ2A-13908. CJ-2A jeeps up to s/n 13908 used MB horn A-1398. I have personally seen many early CJ2A jeeps after serial number 13908 and from personal observation have noticed many of them have the short trumpet Auto Lite horn on them.

I have not media blasted any of the short trumpet Auto Lite horns I have, and from my limited inspection of them I have not yet discovered any model number, such as HA-033, on them. I have not yet identifued a Sparton model B-10539 horn either. Nevertheless, from the above limited evidence and personal observations, I am comfortable concluding that that short trumpet Auto Lite horn found on many early CJ-2A jeeps was also installed at the factory on some MBs built during July and August, 1945.

Bob N disclaimer: I "do not know" any of the above to be true or correct and don't make any such claim. It is simply my report of ink found on paper coupled with some personal observations, result in a solely personal judgment, so take it for that and nothing more.

Others may find some value in this report. I look foward to comments and photo of horns people have found on late 1945 MB jeeps. Many of those photos on G-503 perviously posted by others over the past few years have expired and are no longer viewable, so I could not "see" which horns they were asking about. I encourage others to repost those photograhps in this thread to revive the discussion of short trumpet Auto Lite horns.
Last edited by Fred Coldwell on Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Frank
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Post by Frank » Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:45 am

HI Fred.
I have seen those horns on a LOT of 45 MB`s....so if I should guess on a date I would place the "relase" of these horns earlyer than July 45 :)

Will go through my files and post some pictures later...

Cheers,
Frank..
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Post by Bob N » Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:07 pm

thanks for thinking of me Fred. It's always great to share and state the facts and only the facts - of course, it is okay to enter a hypothesis as long as we make it clear as such. I see nothing wrong with what you posted.

It is very much like other parts that appear to have been authorized but didn't make it into production - perhaps this part did.

Fred have you seen anything that suggests an average released for production and actually produced on various parts? Perhaps there really isn't a meaningful average?

Sorry to have gotten to your wrong side on the previous topics. I did not mean any harm - As I had said I would hate to see folks rush out to buy something thinking it is correct when frankly we don't know.

Frank, If the release was July 23, it is very doubtful that any early jeeps would have this horn from the production line. This is not to say that in the 60 years that has elapsed that this "new" horn wasn't in the supply lines of the various militaries the jeeps were in until final mustering out ---or from what the Bubba's around the world would do
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MB late war short trumpet Auto Lite horn

Post by Dan LeFevre » Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:49 pm

I have a "shorty" on my 7-20-45 MB

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Post by AZ Jeff » Sun Apr 10, 2005 3:37 pm

Fred,

I posted for sale a few of these stubby horn trumpets a few years ago on the "G". They had the HA number you reference. The thinking (at that time) was that they were clearly postwar, civilian issue. It's neat to see a wartime reference to them now!

Jeff Q.
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Post by Randy R » Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:00 pm

Can someone post a picture of these horns?

Thanks,
Randy

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Post by Fred Coldwell » Sun Apr 10, 2005 4:52 pm

Bob N wrote: It is very much like other parts that appear to have been authorized but didn't make it into production - perhaps this part did. Fred have you seen anything that suggests an average released for production and actually produced on various parts? Perhaps there really isn't a meaningful average?
Bob - There were many experimental parts designed and perhaps built by W/O, indentified by an "E" after the "A" in the part number: "AE-XXXX" that were tested or considered but never got released for production. These experimental "AE-XXXX" parts never appear in any parts list. Once a part was released for production, the "E" was dropped and it kept the original experimental part number but without the "E", as in "A-XXXX". There were a few parts, perhaps 100+- out of 17XXX or so, that were released for production then quickly canceled before use. Those are noted in the LOPN as "Canceled - never used" and I doubt that many of those W/O parts were ever included in a published parts list. I think the far, far majority (say 99%+) of W/O parts that were released for production were actually produced and used on W/O vehicles. I think the "meaningful average" you are asking about would be the percentage of AE parts to the total of all (AE + A) parts. Calcualting that percentage would mean counting and tabulating over 17,000 individual entries, a task I will leave to my next life. ;)
Bob N wrote: Frank, If the release was July 23, it is very doubtful that any early jeeps would have this horn from the production line. This is not to say that in the 60 years that has elapsed that this "new" horn wasn't in the supply lines of the various militaries the jeeps were in until final mustering out ---or from what the Bubba's around the world would do
Bob - The release date was July 9, 1945. The PRF for A-17716 was amended on July 23rd to add a third factory department to the other two departments through which this part passed on its way to the production line. Amending a PRD did not change the original release date; it simply left that date off the amended PRF form and included only the date of the latest amendment.
Happy Jeep Trails,

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Post by Bob N » Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:09 pm

I guess what I want to know is what does released for production mean. Does this mean that the parts are ready to go or that know the part can be made?
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Post by Fred Coldwell » Sun Apr 10, 2005 5:35 pm

Bob N wrote:I guess what I want to know is what does released for production mean. Does this mean that the parts are ready to go or that know the part can be made?
Bob - It depends, but generally I see it as an upstream concept, looking at the vehicle that is being produced by W/O, and not as a downstream concept, looking at the part as it might be produced by the part manufacturer. In many instances, the parts already exist in some manufacturer's inventory, often as a standard industry item (battery, hardware, electrical components, auto horn), or can be quickly produced in quantity, especially if it is a special made-to-order part. I would think that before W/O released a part for production, it would have made firm arrangements to have the part supplier immediately deliver as many of the parts as W/O would need for uninterrupted vehicle production. Sometimes W/O would use up existing stock before introducing a new part that had been released for production. But generally, I think the parts are ready to go, as opposed to the parts can now be made by the parts supplier.
Happy Jeep Trails,

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Shorty horn

Post by Dan LeFevre » Sun Apr 10, 2005 6:54 pm

Here it is Randy


Image




Dan

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Post by Fred Coldwell » Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:12 pm

Hi Dan:

Your horn is what I think of as a GMC horn, not an Auto Lite horn. Your stubby horn looks like the GMC horn Luca was asking about earlier, which I put into a different thread titled "GMC horns in MBs". Shortly I'll post photographs of the Auto Lite horn I'm talking about.
Last edited by Fred Coldwell on Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Happy Jeep Trails,

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Photos of Auto Lite HA-033 horns

Post by Fred Coldwell » Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:43 pm

Here's what I think the Auto Lite HA-033 horn with a 2 inch long trumpet, that is one of the the two optional horns under W/O part A-17715, looks like:

Image


Image

Comments anyone?
Happy Jeep Trails,

Fred Coldwell
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Post by Alasdair Brass » Sun Apr 10, 2005 8:22 pm

Hi Fred,
Many years ago and long before the internet, it was thought by some knowledgable jeep folk that Autolite may have been a default supplier of regular trumpeted horns for GPW's as early as 1942. I am not aware of any proof but proof does not always exist for such matters.

If Autolite is accepted as an official supplier in late production, it maybe adds just a little weight to the possibility. I am not encouraging anyone fit Autolite horns to early jeeps, just bringing to light a possible link.

Regards
Al
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Post by Mark Tombleson » Sun Apr 10, 2005 11:10 pm

Fred, I read what you wrote several times here and saw nothing in regards to exactly which models of MB the PRF was issued for?

Is there any BOM (List of Parts) we can tie this to any model MB?

Or does this fit in that ALL column?

Or, were they set up on a PRF and BOM for service parts?

That may be why some 1945 MBs have the horn as there is no way to install them in the factory before they were built. They can however be the service part and used in that model, can't they?
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Post by Fred Coldwell » Mon Apr 11, 2005 1:21 pm

Hi Mark:

The PRF's for the A-17716 horn bracket (2nd issue dated 7/23/45) and the A-17717 horn bracket spacer (1st issue dated 7/9/45) were each for Parts Group 12-D, Chassis Model MB, quantity 1 each for the MB and NB (Navy Basic) jeep as typed in the header to the first vertical column to the right of "All". There is nothing to indicate these were service parts. Hope this answers your question. :)
Happy Jeep Trails,

Fred Coldwell
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