MA 450S Carter Carb
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb
Your own form lends incredulity to your statement. Read it once again very carefully.
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb
That the ribbed horn not is an MA thing ?Scoutpilot wrote:Your own form lends incredulity to your statement. Read it once again very carefully.
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb
SUPERSEDED; Verb; replace, take the place of, take over from, succeed; supplant, displace, oust, overthrow, remove, unseat. “The WO450S, with the ribbed top, was superseded by the WO450SA, with the smooth top.”
'70-'71 'A' Batt., 377th FA, 101AB
(Slicks and LOH's)(Col's LOH Pilot)
'71-72 CHARLIE TROOP,
16TH AIR CAV, 1ST AVN BDE (AEROSCOUTS)
LOW LEVEL HELL.
'46 CJ2A
'47 CJ2A
'48 CJ2A
'48 B1PW126
'69 CJ5
(Slicks and LOH's)(Col's LOH Pilot)
'71-72 CHARLIE TROOP,
16TH AIR CAV, 1ST AVN BDE (AEROSCOUTS)
LOW LEVEL HELL.
'46 CJ2A
'47 CJ2A
'48 CJ2A
'48 B1PW126
'69 CJ5
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb
It would seem to me the best evidence is the most original unrestored MA's found had the ribbed version. I would discount photos in documentation because even the MA shop manual has several errors in it. I bet the americar and MA used the ribbed version which is why more of them are found. The Carter documentation in my opinion is greatly outweighed by real work evidence to the contrary. Sean.
- Chuck Lutz
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb
When one gets involved with manuals you must remember that they are not always updated with regard to the photos they used. The best example of that is the continued use of MA manual photos in not only the early MB manuals but even in the early GPW manuals. In reality, the parts in question changed but the photos did not. While a VEP MB or GPW might have placed the T/C lever springs BETWEEN the levers, as soon as the change to the FATTER style very early in 1942 took place, the photo in the manuals did not. Consequently we STILL have guys trying to sell us on the opinion that ALL WWII jeeps had the anti rattle springs between the T/C levers during WWII.
Secondly, if a Carter Service bulleting is dated 1941 then it is much more believable than one with a 1941 and 1945 or 1953 Revision date on it.
Thirdly, those Ford and Willys Master Parts books give you parts that are available as REPLACEMENTS as of the date of the manual, they do not necessarily give you the part that was originally used on the factory line the day the jeep was produced.
I don't have an MA so the argument is moot here....but I do think it important to use the correct documentation and interpret it correctly.
Secondly, if a Carter Service bulleting is dated 1941 then it is much more believable than one with a 1941 and 1945 or 1953 Revision date on it.
Thirdly, those Ford and Willys Master Parts books give you parts that are available as REPLACEMENTS as of the date of the manual, they do not necessarily give you the part that was originally used on the factory line the day the jeep was produced.
I don't have an MA so the argument is moot here....but I do think it important to use the correct documentation and interpret it correctly.
Chuck Lutz
GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947
GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
Bantam T3-C 1947
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb
Price change to $475
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb
George Hollins wrote:Based on the Willys Parts List dated January 1946 (photo below), the Carter 450S was the first Carter carb used by Willys starting in 1940. Willys had always used Tillotson carbs up until 1940. For some reason Willys changed to the Carter 450S mid-year 1940 production. Harry Tillotson was a longtime friend and associate of John Willys until Willys died in 1935. Tillotson was a pallbearer at Willys funeral. Maybe someone has knowledge as to why Willys Overland management changed from Tillotson to Carter carbs in 1940.
wo2jeeper:
Have you found Carter carbs from 1937-1939 with ribbed air horns? If so, they were not for Willys. If you have evidence of these old mid 1930s carbs with ribs, this would mean it was a Carter design for other customers and not a Willys design?
George
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb
wo2jeeper wrote:George Hollins wrote:Based on the Willys Parts List dated January 1946 (photo below), the Carter 450S was the first Carter carb used by Willys starting in 1940. Willys had always used Tillotson carbs up until 1940. For some reason Willys changed to the Carter 450S mid-year 1940 production. Harry Tillotson was a longtime friend and associate of John Willys until Willys died in 1935. Tillotson was a pallbearer at Willys funeral. Maybe someone has knowledge as to why Willys Overland management changed from Tillotson to Carter carbs in 1940.
wo2jeeper:
Have you found Carter carbs from 1937-1939 with ribbed air horns? If so, they were not for Willys. If you have evidence of these old mid 1930s carbs with ribs, this would mean it was a Carter design for other customers and not a Willys design?
George
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb
This carb is stamped 200 on the bottom of the base. It has nine patent numbers. One is a raised number. Carter W-O, is it a Willys ma carb?
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb
I just read George Hollins’ July 8, 2017 post, in which he wrote: “Maybe someone has knowledge as to why Willys Overland management changed from Tillotson to Carter carbs in 1940.” So this is an extremely-tardy response. The answer can be found in a federal tax court decision: Overland Corp. v. Commissioner, 34 T.C. 1001 (T.C. 1960). (Willys Overland Motors, Inc. changed its name to Overland Corp. when it sold the Willys and Jeep trade names and many other assets to Kaiser interests in 1953.) The decision states that as early as March, 1937, the company was seeking alternatives to Tillotson carburetors. After Delmar G. Roos became the company’s vice-president in charge of engineering on January 16, 1938, Tillotson carburetors were described as “an air valve type which was practically obsolete in the industry. It was unreliable and of obsolete design.” Carter carburetors were described as “standard in the industry and readily available.” In November 1938, the company’s executive committee authorized its purchasing department to procure Carter carburetors beginning in February 1939, the delay attributed to outstanding commitments for 10,000 Tillotson carburetors. The reason such improvements were litigated in tax court related to Overland Corp.’s unsuccessful efforts to recoup millions in excess-profits taxes paid in 1942-1945 by attributing those improvements to military needs. The tax court found that Roos’ 1938 performance objectives had been fully achieved by December 1940, “when a test engine was run for 100 hours at 4,400 r.p.m. without failure.” The tax court’s decision noted that the company’s “lack of funds” delayed adoption of “thin steel-backed interchangeable bearings on the connecting rods of the engines” due to “the cost of the special precision machine tool required for the machining thereof,” but “assured volume” from the August 1, 1941 government contract for 16,000 1/4 ton “military vehicles” led the company to fit such bearings to the engines in those vehicles.
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb
Dear Illegible Yellow Name:
Thank you for posting the citation to and excerpts from Overland Corp. v Tax Commissioner, 34 T.C. 1001 (T.C. 1960). The reasons for the change from Tillotson to Carter carburetors is sound engineering, which Barney Roos practiced and implemented in Willys-Overland.
Unrelated, but why do you used illegible yellow for your forum name?
Thank you for posting the citation to and excerpts from Overland Corp. v Tax Commissioner, 34 T.C. 1001 (T.C. 1960). The reasons for the change from Tillotson to Carter carburetors is sound engineering, which Barney Roos practiced and implemented in Willys-Overland.
Unrelated, but why do you used illegible yellow for your forum name?
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Re: MA 450S Carter Carb
Fred,
It's what the moderators require for new members...notice it is his first post.
Craig
It's what the moderators require for new members...notice it is his first post.
Craig
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