Now to put the fox in the henhouse, BRC house that is
Moderator: DavidA
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Now to put the fox in the henhouse, BRC house that is
Hi to All,
It has bugged me for a long while now and possibly this post will flush out some real information.
Where oh where did the terms BRC60 and BRC40 come from
All the original literature and manuals I have seen refer to the Bantam jeep as
Model BRC 4x4 1/4 ton truck... 1941 series...... or just BRC.... or Bantam Reconnaissance Car
The earliest mention of the 40BRC is in a 1980 Army motors and was a caption under a photo, but it is even reversed.
My point to all this is with the 75th anniversary coming up in 2015 and a lot of people have been attempting to correct miss-information that has been printed for years about the origins of the jeep. To have any credibility the information released has to be correct and be able to be proven to be correct.
I am guilty of using the terms BRC40/60 myself and this is by no means an attack at anyone, just putting it out there for healthy discussion.
Regards
It has bugged me for a long while now and possibly this post will flush out some real information.
Where oh where did the terms BRC60 and BRC40 come from
All the original literature and manuals I have seen refer to the Bantam jeep as
Model BRC 4x4 1/4 ton truck... 1941 series...... or just BRC.... or Bantam Reconnaissance Car
The earliest mention of the 40BRC is in a 1980 Army motors and was a caption under a photo, but it is even reversed.
My point to all this is with the 75th anniversary coming up in 2015 and a lot of people have been attempting to correct miss-information that has been printed for years about the origins of the jeep. To have any credibility the information released has to be correct and be able to be proven to be correct.
I am guilty of using the terms BRC40/60 myself and this is by no means an attack at anyone, just putting it out there for healthy discussion.
Regards
Michael Browne
Heron Hill Motorpool
REAL jeeps have BAR GRILLES and FLAT FENDERS. The rest are imitations.
Heron Hill Motorpool
REAL jeeps have BAR GRILLES and FLAT FENDERS. The rest are imitations.
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Re: Now to put the fox in the henhouse, BRC house that is
Michael – I agree with you that the BRC40 and BRC60 are made up model designations by collectors and authors over the past 40 years.
At the risk of being banished by my fellow BRC collectors, distinguished authors, and worldly historians, I would like to propose a more logical model designation system:
1940 BRC PILOT Sept, 1940, 1 vehicle
1940 BRC Oct-Dec, 1940, 70 vehicles
1941 BRC Series-I March to June, 1941, 1500 vehicles
1941 BRC Series-II October to December, 1941, 1,080 vehicles
George
At the risk of being banished by my fellow BRC collectors, distinguished authors, and worldly historians, I would like to propose a more logical model designation system:
1940 BRC PILOT Sept, 1940, 1 vehicle
1940 BRC Oct-Dec, 1940, 70 vehicles
1941 BRC Series-I March to June, 1941, 1500 vehicles
1941 BRC Series-II October to December, 1941, 1,080 vehicles
George
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Re: Now to put the fox in the henhouse, BRC house that is
You are a brave man George ... and thank you for the reply.At the risk of being banished by my fellow BRC collectors, distinguished authors, and worldly historians
Certainly the terms BRC40 BRC60 have been around for a long time but that doesn't make them right, and is the point of the discussion. So has the 'Willys invented the jeep' line and published in more and more books and online publications.
Getting the websites to correct errors is a battle even when you furnish the documentation.
Your suggestion is a good one, however it may cause more confusion, maybe use 1941 1st contract, 1941 2nd contract etc instead of series 1,series 2... even the GP boys get confused
Michael Browne
Heron Hill Motorpool
REAL jeeps have BAR GRILLES and FLAT FENDERS. The rest are imitations.
Heron Hill Motorpool
REAL jeeps have BAR GRILLES and FLAT FENDERS. The rest are imitations.
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Re: Now to put the fox in the henhouse, BRC house that is
Hi Michael:
After some quick fox hunting I found a decade-earlier usage of "40BRC" than the 1980 article in the MVPA's Army Motors magazine. In his 1969 book The Observer's FIGHTING VEHICLES DIRECTORY, World War II, researcher and editor Bart H. Vanderveen refers to the Bantam 1/4 ton 4x4 trucks as follows:
1. Bantam Reconnaissance Car, Prototype . . . worlds first prototype jeep, pictured on page 20.
2. Bantam Reconnaissance Car, Pilot Model . . . "Mark II", 70 made, pictured on page 20.
3. Truck, 1/4 ton, 4x4, Command Reconnaissance (Bantam 40BRC) . . . 2,675 made, pictured on page 19.
4. Carriage, Motor, 37mm Gun, T2E1, (1/4 ton, 4x4, Bantam 40BRC), pictured on page 21.
So here is earlier (1969) use of the dyslexic "40BRC" to refer to the 2,675 prestandardized Bantam jeeps by a respected authority on military vehicles. There is no mention in this book where "40BRC" came from or what it refers to, but perhaps Bart discusses that designation in some issue of Wheels and Tracks magazine that he also edited. Worth a look.
Also, what year were Dan Post's BRC, GP and MA maintenance manuals first reprinted? How did Dan identify the Bantams in his reprinted manuals or on their covers? I hope others can dig back earlier in time than I have here to answer your excellent question.
After some quick fox hunting I found a decade-earlier usage of "40BRC" than the 1980 article in the MVPA's Army Motors magazine. In his 1969 book The Observer's FIGHTING VEHICLES DIRECTORY, World War II, researcher and editor Bart H. Vanderveen refers to the Bantam 1/4 ton 4x4 trucks as follows:
1. Bantam Reconnaissance Car, Prototype . . . worlds first prototype jeep, pictured on page 20.
2. Bantam Reconnaissance Car, Pilot Model . . . "Mark II", 70 made, pictured on page 20.
3. Truck, 1/4 ton, 4x4, Command Reconnaissance (Bantam 40BRC) . . . 2,675 made, pictured on page 19.
4. Carriage, Motor, 37mm Gun, T2E1, (1/4 ton, 4x4, Bantam 40BRC), pictured on page 21.
So here is earlier (1969) use of the dyslexic "40BRC" to refer to the 2,675 prestandardized Bantam jeeps by a respected authority on military vehicles. There is no mention in this book where "40BRC" came from or what it refers to, but perhaps Bart discusses that designation in some issue of Wheels and Tracks magazine that he also edited. Worth a look.
Also, what year were Dan Post's BRC, GP and MA maintenance manuals first reprinted? How did Dan identify the Bantams in his reprinted manuals or on their covers? I hope others can dig back earlier in time than I have here to answer your excellent question.
Happy Jeep Trails,
Fred Coldwell
1944 CJ2-09 - X33
1945 CJ2-26 - X50
1944 Dodge T233 CC
1945 Dodge T233 Utility
MVPA #283C
Fred Coldwell
1944 CJ2-09 - X33
1945 CJ2-26 - X50
1944 Dodge T233 CC
1945 Dodge T233 Utility
MVPA #283C
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Re: Now to put the fox in the henhouse, BRC house that is
Hi Fred,Also, what year were Dan Post's BRC, GP and MA maintenance manuals first reprinted? How did Dan identify the Bantams in his reprinted manuals or on their covers? I hope others can dig back earlier in time than I have here to answer your excellent question.
Dan Post series of books is dated 1971 and it includes an article from a Popular Mechanics magazine from 1941 and the first model Bantam is called the pilot and the next 69 (or 70) cars were the "improved model".
The cover of his book calls the Bantam.. Model BRC and this manual, TM 10-1205, covers the 1st contract for 1500 vehicles.
Interesting the nomenclature plate shows the make and model as "Bantam RC" and the manual then calls the cars BRC 1941 model.
I can see how collectors started to use BRC60 as the Bantam cars of the time were referred to as 1939 Model 60 but that is just a guess.
Regards
Michael Browne
Heron Hill Motorpool
REAL jeeps have BAR GRILLES and FLAT FENDERS. The rest are imitations.
Heron Hill Motorpool
REAL jeeps have BAR GRILLES and FLAT FENDERS. The rest are imitations.
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Re: Now to put the fox in the henhouse, BRC house that is
Expanding on Fred Coldwell’s comments, Bart H. Vanderveen had another book titled “THE JEEP” published 1971. In this book he referred to the first 1500 BRC built in 1941 as:
Page 11: “Improved model 40 BRC”
Page 11: “The American Bantam production model 40 BRC (= 1940 Bantam Reconnaissance Car)”
Another book titled “Indestructible Jeep” by D. Denfeld and M. Fry, 1973 has the following:
Page 33: “Bantam Mark II pilot, serial 1007”
These authors referred to the first 1500 BRC built in 1941 as:
Page 42: “A 1940 BRC, or 1940 Bantam Reconnaissance Car….”
It is very possible that these authors found the model designations from the earlier Vanderveen books.
There are earlier books such as “Hail to the Jeep” by A. Wade Wells 1946, and “Whatever Became of the Baby Austin” by John Underwood 1965 where there is no mention of 40 BRC or Mark II.
The 1941 Bantam parts book TM10-1204 and the Maintenance Manual TM10-1205 both are printed with MODEL BRC, and no mention of 40 BRC or Mark II.
Regarding the first use of BRC60, it must have been invented in the 1980’s or 1990’s by collectors and authors to describe the 70 BRC built in 1940.
Unless someone can find documents earlier than these first books (1969 – 1973) with reference to 40 BRC, and Mark II, I am inclined to believe that these were the author’s invented model designations, and not the official Bantam or Military models.
George
Page 11: “Improved model 40 BRC”
Page 11: “The American Bantam production model 40 BRC (= 1940 Bantam Reconnaissance Car)”
Another book titled “Indestructible Jeep” by D. Denfeld and M. Fry, 1973 has the following:
Page 33: “Bantam Mark II pilot, serial 1007”
These authors referred to the first 1500 BRC built in 1941 as:
Page 42: “A 1940 BRC, or 1940 Bantam Reconnaissance Car….”
It is very possible that these authors found the model designations from the earlier Vanderveen books.
There are earlier books such as “Hail to the Jeep” by A. Wade Wells 1946, and “Whatever Became of the Baby Austin” by John Underwood 1965 where there is no mention of 40 BRC or Mark II.
The 1941 Bantam parts book TM10-1204 and the Maintenance Manual TM10-1205 both are printed with MODEL BRC, and no mention of 40 BRC or Mark II.
Regarding the first use of BRC60, it must have been invented in the 1980’s or 1990’s by collectors and authors to describe the 70 BRC built in 1940.
Unless someone can find documents earlier than these first books (1969 – 1973) with reference to 40 BRC, and Mark II, I am inclined to believe that these were the author’s invented model designations, and not the official Bantam or Military models.
George
- Fred Coldwell
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Re: Now to put the fox in the henhouse, BRC house that is
George:
Nice follow-up, especially Bart's sentence explaining "40" is shorthand for "1940". "Mark II" always had a British ring to my ears, as that is the sort of tag they often seem to mark things with. Thanks for the good leg work.
Nice follow-up, especially Bart's sentence explaining "40" is shorthand for "1940". "Mark II" always had a British ring to my ears, as that is the sort of tag they often seem to mark things with. Thanks for the good leg work.
Happy Jeep Trails,
Fred Coldwell
1944 CJ2-09 - X33
1945 CJ2-26 - X50
1944 Dodge T233 CC
1945 Dodge T233 Utility
MVPA #283C
Fred Coldwell
1944 CJ2-09 - X33
1945 CJ2-26 - X50
1944 Dodge T233 CC
1945 Dodge T233 Utility
MVPA #283C
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Re: Now to put the fox in the henhouse, BRC house that is
I always refer to Todd Paisleys documents when I am curious about the beginnings of the jeep and in that vein, I find nothing until a 2006 story where there is a mention of the BRC40 in some authors historical account.
Now that the subject has come up, it is very very interesting that almost everyone here is aware of the so called nomenclature yet there is no proof that the numbers actually existed. I love the idea that someone may simply have thrown these designators at the wall and they stuck. Heck, I have folders of photos and documents on my computer that are labeled BRC 60 and BRC 40.
Now what do I do?
Now that the subject has come up, it is very very interesting that almost everyone here is aware of the so called nomenclature yet there is no proof that the numbers actually existed. I love the idea that someone may simply have thrown these designators at the wall and they stuck. Heck, I have folders of photos and documents on my computer that are labeled BRC 60 and BRC 40.
Now what do I do?
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Re: Now to put the fox in the henhouse, BRC house that is
Hi,
Nice research by the previous posters
With the 75th anniversary coming up and lots of knowledgeable Bantam people spreading the word it would be more credible to get "our" own references right before we try to preach to the masses
Maybe it is a nit picky thing but if we are trying to correct obvious errors in printed & web literature the first thing the capital "J" jeep guys will throw back are our own mistakes
Keep it flowing
Nice research by the previous posters
David, until recently I did too, even had shirts printed a few years back with BRC 40 under the grille outline, so I'm as guilty as anyone of following on with the crowd. I now use pilot,round nose, & BRC to label the files.Heck, I have folders of photos and documents on my computer that are labeled BRC 60 and BRC 40.
Now what do I do?
With the 75th anniversary coming up and lots of knowledgeable Bantam people spreading the word it would be more credible to get "our" own references right before we try to preach to the masses
Maybe it is a nit picky thing but if we are trying to correct obvious errors in printed & web literature the first thing the capital "J" jeep guys will throw back are our own mistakes
Keep it flowing
Michael Browne
Heron Hill Motorpool
REAL jeeps have BAR GRILLES and FLAT FENDERS. The rest are imitations.
Heron Hill Motorpool
REAL jeeps have BAR GRILLES and FLAT FENDERS. The rest are imitations.
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Re: Now to put the fox in the henhouse, BRC house that is
Here is a logical and simple model designation:
1940 BRC
1941 BRC
George
1940 BRC
1941 BRC
George
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Re: Now to put the fox in the henhouse, BRC house that is
Hi,
No-one else have any comments
Forgot I had that book and had another look through it. Interesting that Bart V labelled the 1941 BRC as a 40 BRC and even explained it as manufacturing year.... ....but this "standard" type BRC was developed and manufactured from March through Dec 1941.Expanding on Fred Coldwell’s comments, Bart H. Vanderveen had another book titled “THE JEEP” published 1971. In this book he referred to the first 1500 BRC built in 1941 as:
Page 11: “Improved model 40 BRC”
Page 11: “The American Bantam production model 40 BRC (= 1940 Bantam Reconnaissance Car)”
Yes George, very simple and correct, but don't forget the pilotHere is a logical and simple model designation:
1940 BRC
1941 BRC
George
No-one else have any comments
Michael Browne
Heron Hill Motorpool
REAL jeeps have BAR GRILLES and FLAT FENDERS. The rest are imitations.
Heron Hill Motorpool
REAL jeeps have BAR GRILLES and FLAT FENDERS. The rest are imitations.
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Re: Now to put the fox in the henhouse, BRC house that is
I agree with George, and I am proceeding to change all my references to 40 and 41 Bantams, or the Pilot…Only the Canadians are left out here...
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Re: Now to put the fox in the henhouse, BRC house that is
What a great thread. It's so simple. I've had random questioning thoughts about the "40 and "60" designations. Like how did the BRC 60 come before the BRC 40? That defies conventional automotive logic and standard terminology.And now that it's been brought up, when I skim thru my files, I see no period 40 and 60 references that jump out.
The only thing that makes some sense as a possibility is since the Bantam folks used bits and pieces of the Bantam Model 60 body for the pilot and the round-noses, might they have added that the "BRC?" A bit of a stretch but ....? The "40" makes no sense and has no similar connection I can see.
It just so happens I have a story on deadline for Jp about the roundnose Bantams, 007 in particular, so I will start making the nomenclature changes for the general/mainstream public in that story and any thereafter. '40 BRC and '41 BRC seem adequate and accurate and that's what I'll use unless this discussion brings about better terms before my deadline. I can't think of any better at the moment. We should keep digging thru period materials, though, on the off chance the old 40 and 60 terms have some validity, or at least an explanation.
The only thing that makes some sense as a possibility is since the Bantam folks used bits and pieces of the Bantam Model 60 body for the pilot and the round-noses, might they have added that the "BRC?" A bit of a stretch but ....? The "40" makes no sense and has no similar connection I can see.
It just so happens I have a story on deadline for Jp about the roundnose Bantams, 007 in particular, so I will start making the nomenclature changes for the general/mainstream public in that story and any thereafter. '40 BRC and '41 BRC seem adequate and accurate and that's what I'll use unless this discussion brings about better terms before my deadline. I can't think of any better at the moment. We should keep digging thru period materials, though, on the off chance the old 40 and 60 terms have some validity, or at least an explanation.
Jim Allen
Keeping the Good 'Ol Days of Four Wheeling Alive
Keeping the Good 'Ol Days of Four Wheeling Alive
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Re: Now to put the fox in the henhouse, BRC house that is
American Bantam Model 60 the civilian models, that is the connection between BRC 60. ( I guess )
And the 60 might by the link to the 60 mpg fuel consumtion from the civilian engine ?
And the 60 might by the link to the 60 mpg fuel consumtion from the civilian engine ?
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Re: Now to put the fox in the henhouse, BRC house that is
Jim
Thanks for your comments. I would recommend that you use the full year instead of the abbreviated ’40 and ’41.
1940 BRC PILOT
1940 BRC (formerly referred to as BRC-60, Mark-II)
1941 BRC (formerly referred to as BRC-40)
The use of ’40 BRC is probably how this misunderstanding all started back in 1969-1973.
George
Thanks for your comments. I would recommend that you use the full year instead of the abbreviated ’40 and ’41.
1940 BRC PILOT
1940 BRC (formerly referred to as BRC-60, Mark-II)
1941 BRC (formerly referred to as BRC-40)
The use of ’40 BRC is probably how this misunderstanding all started back in 1969-1973.
George
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