4 wheel steer GP

1940 - 1941 BRC, MA, GP, Preproduction Prototypes. Knowledge Base NO EBAY or COMMERCIAL SALES.
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Fred Ransome
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4 wheel steer GP

Post by Fred Ransome » Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:10 pm

Would anyone speculate on the approximate going price of a restored 4 wheel steer Ford GP? I realize they don't come on the market very often so the value will vary greatly. Thank you.
Fred Ransome
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DavidA
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Re: 4 wheel steer GP

Post by DavidA » Thu Nov 19, 2009 5:47 pm

Email or PM Luc Coesens. He probably would have an idea.

My guess...Priceless! :P

I have a number of them on the list. If you are aware of one not listed, please let me know as I would love to add it on.

Dave

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pierino
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Re: 4 wheel steer GP

Post by pierino » Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:58 am

should I talk for my country... on the seller's side, not below 50.000,00 euro... from the buyer side...well, first you should be able to find somebody that could appreciate such a rarity! 8)

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Re: 4 wheel steer GP

Post by cblynch » Fri Nov 20, 2009 8:12 am

Fred, a necessary first question should be.........did this 4 wheel steer LEAVE THE FACTORY as a four wheel steer, or is this a "conversion"?.......a four wheel steer GP could be built for about $3K over the price of a regular GP.......two small places added to the body, an adapted front axle assembly added to the back, a steering box and two linkages.............I ASSURE you it has been done ( not by me, though)............
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Re: 4 wheel steer GP

Post by Fred Ransome » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:13 pm

I don't know if it is an original or conversion. I hope to see it this week end. It may be put up for sale and I will let everyone know since I don't want to invest $75K in it.
Fred Ransome
1941 Ford GP (S/N 9615)
1943 Indian 741
1942 WC-58
M100 Trailer


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Re: 4 wheel steer GP

Post by cblynch » Fri Nov 20, 2009 12:52 pm

Fred, I did not buy a nice 4 wheel steer GP at $18K five years ago..........at the $75K range, I would consider selling my mother.................
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acmack
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Re: 4 wheel steer GP

Post by acmack » Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:18 pm

Bruce, how can you tell a restored "conversion" from a factory original other than finding it in unrestored "barn find" condition? David
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Re: 4 wheel steer GP

Post by cblynch » Sat Nov 21, 2009 8:37 am

Great question.. answer one, serial number... 4 wheel steers were in a range. Gilmore would know the exact #s........answer two, the steering box, repros usually stand out like a sore thumb, especially internally. answer three.... the rear axle housing and axle has to be CUT in length to make a regular front axle into a 4 wheel steer..... look for this cut closely..........
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Jim Gilmore
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Re: 4 wheel steer GP

Post by Jim Gilmore » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:21 am

Bruce....

Don't forget cutouts in the rear wheelwells, different ratio in the steering box, serial number in 15,xxx range....

And if I remember correctly (as my 4 wheel steer GP is some distance from me...) the rear axle has no camber and the diff housing does NOT say "Front Axle" in raised letters.

And.. the original USA number will be in a seperate range.

Humm..If a restored one is 50 to 75K ...wonder what my original complete unrestored one is worth.......

Jim Gilmore

Jim Thorpe, PA

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Re: 4 wheel steer GP

Post by 41jeeps » Sun Nov 22, 2009 10:27 am

cblynch wrote:Fred, a necessary first question should be.........did this 4 wheel steer LEAVE THE FACTORY as a four wheel steer, or is this a "conversion"?.......a four wheel steer GP could be built for about $3K over the price of a regular GP.......two small places added to the body, an adapted front axle assembly added to the back, a steering box and two linkages.............I ASSURE you it has been done ( not by me, though)............
It is by no means as simple as cblynch would like it to be..!!
You would be surprised how many differences a 4WS has over a STD GP :shock: :o
Ford did a wonderful job on those, I think there has not been made a better setup by other brands during WW2....than the GP 4WS had.

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acmack
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Re: 4 wheel steer GP

Post by acmack » Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:45 pm

Jim, original GP 4WS! :D
Please post photos here or if you've already posted photos on the G please post a link! David
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Re: 4 wheel steer GP

Post by Jim Gilmore » Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:06 pm

I will have to find my photo album with the pixs I took of it....it's 600 miles away stored at a friend's house.

I'll post some pix when I find them.

Jim Gilmore

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Re: 4 wheel steer GP

Post by DavidA » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:51 am

You would be surprised how many differences a 4WS has over a STD GP
Okay, lets list them...

1. Steering box - mid ship
2. bulbouts for wheels in rear fender wells behind seats
3. Shocks (?)
4. Rear differential - markings
5. Serial Number range (.............fill in..........)
6. Hood number range (?)

more?

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Re: 4 wheel steer GP

Post by cblynch » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:00 am

41 Jeeps.......... so Ford had the best 4 wheel steer, huh? Ever consider that the 4 wheel steer BANTAM made had a PIN that could be pulled to make it 2 wheel steer? Convertable 4 wheel steer to 2 wheel steer with a simple bolt pull........a little like a M274 mule.......... Nice touch that FORD could never figure out....... this 4 wheel steer went to CHECKER CAB out of the Butler factory....owned by Stout for sixty five years, owned by ABS President William Spear for a short time...... now owned by an Austin Bantam Society former President living in Texas.....the point is saying Ford's 4 wheel steer was the "best" is certainly arguable..........can you believe the stuff our own Jim Gilmore has hiding away???????? SELL!!!!! to ME!!!!!!!!!
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Re: 4 wheel steer GP

Post by Jim Gilmore » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:45 pm

Bruce, Bruce, Bruce......"Best" 4 wheel steer?......You don't want to go there!!!

".... Ever consider that the 4 wheel steer BANTAM made had a PIN that could be pulled to make it 2 wheel steer? Convertable 4 wheel steer to 2 wheel steer with a simple bolt pull........a little like a M274 mule.......... Nice touch that FORD could never figure out."

No......Ford could "figure it out"...if they wanted..but the production BRC 4WS did not have this feature nor did the QMC ask for it.

"...... this 4 wheel steer went to CHECKER CAB out of the Butler factory....owned by Stout for sixty five years, owned by ABS President William Spear for a short time...... now owned by an Austin Bantam Society former President living in Texas....."

Yes..but only this prototype.....not the production units....And by the way..Stout claimed that it was he who designed the "pin" thing that made it 2 or 4WS and not Bantam.

"......the point is saying Ford's 4 wheel steer was the "best" is certainly arguable.........."

Oh...you don't want to argue this with me.....You will lose....hands down!

The Ford GP was the best of the four makes of 4WS jeeps.

Now, I'M not saying that...it was the ORD, QMC, AGF, FA Board and a couple of hundred soliders and Officers that actually used them for months at a time that said that........ And of course the units that used them as well......they all preferred the Ford GP 4 WS over the Bantam 4 WS.

I have hundreds of pages of test reports from all branches of the Army and bases and Camps across the USA that I copied from the National Archives right here in my file drawers.

In 1941 the Army sent these jeeps all over the country to be tested against each other. The Field Arty, Cav, Anti-Tank units, Signal Cops, Army Ground Forces, MP's, QM units and many more were required to test the jeeps and file reports back to OCO-D on them.

These reports along with several Board reports are still existing.

The Ford had a "better Idea" with their 4WS GP that Bantam had not thought of that made it the best vehicle of the two.

The Bantam had "immediate action" steering. That is to say the front and rear wheels turned at the same time and rate. This made the vehicle very difficult to drive in a straight line and needed constant correction of the steering wheel to keep it driving straight. The was made worse when driving on a "crowned" road and every time the wheel was turned the rear wheels turned also causing a "whip saw" effect. This made the Bantam very difficult to drive at higher speeds.

The Ford had a "delayed action" steering. This is to say the front and rear wheels turned at a different rate. The front wheels would turn first and when they had turned several degrees then the rear wheels would start to turn as well. This way it was easy to keep the vehicle going straight as the rear wheels only turned when the front wheels were turned as to go around corners. Small corrections while driving did not bring the rear wheels into play and it would drive like a standard 2 WS jeep until the wheel was turned further.

I have driven a Bantam 4 WS jeep and it is a bit scary but you do get used to it if you drive carefully....

BTW Bruce....many of these test reports list the USA of serial numbers of the vehicles tested.....send me yours and I will look and see if it is listed on any of the reports

"....can you believe the stuff our own Jim Gilmore has hiding away???????? .."

Oh I have some other interesting stuff as well....


Jim Gilmore

Jim Thorpe, PA.

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