USMC tac marks

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Mark Tombleson
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USMC tac marks

Post by Mark Tombleson » Fri May 05, 2017 4:30 pm

More information on the tac mark issue is coming out and I'm not sure what to think of it yet. From this thread...

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=286105

I now remember the mix up... sorry! :oops:

So, did these guys get it wrong also, https://m1pencil.wordpress.com/2010/02/ ... -markings/

This issue was shown on a radio jeep caption in Guadalcanal?

So this is 3rd division 21st.

Image
and as shown here...
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ ... id=1085068

Here is a thread on the issue... http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/ ... d-uniform/

and the particular post...

Yes--Even the Marine corp museum thinks the 1st Div and 3rd Div.UNIS marking designation may have been reversed in one of the first publications and that it was quoted in references that followed it. I did dig out one of the correspondence from Owen Conner to me and Robert Sullivan and Neil Abelsma. Here it is. This was Jan 2012. Richard

Mr. Marquette,

You have stumbled on to one of the more difficult but fun topics relating to WWII era Marine insignia.

Unfortunately, UNIS markings are an incomplete puzzle. As you will see in most references (particularly Alec Tulkoff's "Grunt Gear" or Bruno Laurenti's "Marine Corps Uniforms & Equipment...") the symbols and their numbers are only well known and understood for the 4th and 5th Marine Divisions.

That I am currently aware of: there is no known "key" to decipher the number designations for the 1st, 3rd, and 6th Marine Divisions.

Here at the National Museum of the Marine Corps we will be cataloging and photographing our entire collection of the next few years. As this occurs, I am confident that the artifacts that we do have (sea bags, HBT shirts, canteens, vehicles, etc.) will reveal several "Rosetta Stone" type pieces that will finally begin to reveal the exact units represented by these symbols. This will take some time though.

In regard to your helmet. Much of the confusion lies in the use of the diamond shape. I found the internet forum where the helmet was being discussed and the image someone posted showing the division symbols there had a key mistake. They had flipped the 1st and 3rd Division markings. The 1st Division is the horizontal (wide) shape. The 3rd Division is the narrower vertical diamond. This is confirmed in both our references and documented artifacts in our collection.

Unfortunately, in looking at your helmet you see one of the major problems in this system. Often the square or rectangle, or in this case vertical or horizontal diamond can be easily "stretched" when the numbers are added inside. This can make the positive identification of one or the other divisions more difficult.

While the diamond looks to be a side-ways/horizontal diamond of the 1st MARDIV it could just be a bad stencil by someone representing the 3rd MARDIV!

This is made more difficult because the number 444 does not readily correct the problem. The number systems for the 1st and 3rd Divisions were not as transparent as they were with the 4th and 5th MARDIV (See attached scan). With those divisions the infantry regiments were easy to spot as their unit corresponded to the series number: e.g. the 300 series indicated 23rd Marines (matching the three in 23), the 400 series to the 24th Marines, etc.

We know however that the there were no units in the 1st or 3rd Divisions that obviously "matched up" in this manner. (for example the 1st Division is composed of the 1st, 5th, 7th, and 11th Marine Regiments). This means that the initial "4" in your "444" must be deciphered with a UNIS key that we do not currently have. In our collection we have a sea bag from a documented 1st Parachute Battalion Marine that shows his symbol as the horizontal diamond and the numbers "325". There would be no real way of knowing this without a key or the man's records showing which units he served in though.

The good news is it looks like you have a great find here and a neat Marine family connection in either way. I will keep a file here on your helmet and if/when I uncover more I will be sure to let you know.

Respectfully,

Owen Conner
Curator
Uniforms & Heraldry
National Museum of the Marine Corps
owen.conner@usmc.mil
Follow us online at http://www.usmcmuseum.org
Join us on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/USMCMuseum


Note post number 79 in that forum!


I am even more confused now than I was then... :shock: :? :? :?

Sorry Greg, I really did not mean to hijack your radio thread. I will see if I can find a more suitable thread to inject this post into.
MB-NAVY-MZ-1 352625 - 07/20/44 (DOD est.)
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blitz67
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Re: USMC tac marks

Post by blitz67 » Fri May 05, 2017 8:13 pm

Do a search on ancestry in the military section and you should be able to see which units he was assigned to. If I had the full name I would do it for you

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Farrell Fox
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Re: USMC tac marks

Post by Farrell Fox » Fri May 05, 2017 9:17 pm

[Post Deleted By Author]
Last edited by Farrell Fox on Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
4th Tank Battalion, 4th Marine Division
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blitz67
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Re: USMC tac marks

Post by blitz67 » Sun May 07, 2017 11:44 am

In April of 1945 Verlod was serving with Headquarters and Service Co., 21St Marines, 3D Marine Division Fmf, In The Field


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