scout car, brakes.

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mike2u
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scout car, brakes.

Post by mike2u » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:38 am

Hello all,
So, I have restored my scout car, but I am having problems with the brakes. Basically, they are not stopping the truck, they are not doing anything, the peddle sinks to the floor.
So, I adjusted the brakes on each wheel so their is just a tiny drag, and I bleed the brakes. When I bleed the brakes I got fluid out of each of the wheel cylinders, but the peddle still sinks to the flood, and still no brakes. Also, the peddle will not come back.

So, I am here seeking your knowledge to help me figure this problem out, so, after 8 years I can enjoy my scout car.

Thanks for your time, hope to hear back soon


Warren Duchesne
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Re: scout car, brakes.

Post by Warren Duchesne » Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:51 pm

Find the proper plug and plug the line coming out of the master cylinder . The petal should be hard with very little travel . If it's not it's the master cylinder or it has air in it and needs bleeding . If it is hard check further down the line for the problem . Warren Duchesne

mike2u
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Re: scout car, brakes.

Post by mike2u » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:13 pm

Ok, I will give that a try Sunday. So, all i'm doing is unplugging the line going out of the master cylinder, and putting a plug into it?

Also, I have put all new wheel cylinders into all 4 wheels, so I couldn't imagine the problem being down further.

Warren Duchesne
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Re: scout car, brakes.

Post by Warren Duchesne » Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:27 pm

Yes that will isolate the problem to the master cylinder or further down the line. Make sure you get the correct plug . If a flair fitting screws into the master cylinder the plug will have a bevel on the bottom . Warren Duchesne

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Re: scout car, brakes.

Post by G102 » Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:09 am

Did you replace the master cylinder with a new master cylinder, or rebuilt the master cylinder?
Hopefully you installed a new master. Rebuilding old master cylinders can be a problem.

Do you have a brake return spring installed? The pedal should come back up.

Did you bleed or run a LOT of brake fluid thru the wheel cylinders? The best way to bleed a system is with a power bleeder. There are a lot of long lines in the system and you must pass a rather large amount of fluid thru the system to remove trapped air bubbles out of the lines and out the wheel cylinders.

1- long shot is you may have a broken brake shoe return spring. All 8 brake shoes need to pull back into the wheel cylinder every time the pedal returns to the top of the stroke.

If you installed a new master cylinder , and NOT a old NOS master cylinder then I would feel you have air still trapped in the lines
Old NOS master cylinders have been sitting way to long and more than likely will not work .

I hope this helps,
GARY'S HALF TRACK PARTS

motto
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Re: scout car, brakes.

Post by motto » Sat Dec 14, 2013 4:38 am

The fact that the pedal stays down may be an indication of where the trouble is. It is most likely the master cylinder but the vacuum servo also buys into the linkage. Do you have the servo disconnected? If you were to disconnect it and put the pin back through the end of the two levers there should be nothing to prevent the two return springs (one attached to each lever) from pulling the pedal back up. This should allow the pedal to be pumped freely and rapidly.
It's also possible you may have more than one problem.
One thing you must have is full master cylinder piston travel in the released or brakes off position. This is normally assured by the provision of a little free play on the push rod. With the piston in the fully released position the tiny little compensating port between the M/C reservoir and cylinder should be clear. This is the forward of the two holes you can see looking in the filler port and can be checked by carefully probing with a thin piece of wire. Be careful as the cup may be covering the hole if it's not correct or the piston not all the way back. If the hole is blocked then you've found the problem or one of them anyway.

David

This post has been edited to include mention of return springs which are not illustrated in the diagram in ™ 9-705 but are shown in the photo.
Last edited by motto on Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

printzpic
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Re: scout car, brakes.

Post by printzpic » Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:20 am

When we got to the brakes on my Scout Car restoration, we discussed braking reliability, especially since I intended to use it a lot in parages etc. My chief mechanic told me that he could install hydrolically assisted power brakes as well as in-line power steering. I told him to go ahead.
He fabricated the mounts for the hydrolic pump and mounted it to the engine. No mods were done to the engine block, he utilized existing holes. He ran a different belt to power it off the second belt rim on the fan belt pulley. Cut the steering shaft, fabricated the fittings and installed the pump, in line to the steering shaft. He put a hydrolically assisted master brake cylinder on, making only one small notch in the cross member to allow it to fit.
Bottom line.....I wanted a dependable, safe vehicle. These mods have insured that. Every half-track and Scout Car owner who have driven my vehicle love the power steering and appreciated the added safety of the power assisted brakes. For the 'purists' who will jump up and down about the vehicle 'not being' original, I have a spare steering shaft and original master cylinder so whoever buys this from me when I'm ready to sell, can take it back to 'factory original'. I strongly expect that once they drive it, they'll leave it 'as is'.
Attachments
Scout Car Power steering 020.resized.jpg
Scout Car Power steering 020.resized.jpg (68.25 KiB) Viewed 1449 times
Scout Car Power steering 018.resized.jpg
Scout Car Power steering 018.resized.jpg (72.55 KiB) Viewed 1449 times
Scout Car Power steering 016.resized jpg.jpg
Scout Car Power steering 016.resized jpg.jpg (71.3 KiB) Viewed 1449 times
Power Steering Pump 2 resized.jpg
Power Steering Pump 2 resized.jpg (71.78 KiB) Viewed 1449 times
Master Brake Cylinder resized.jpg
Master Brake Cylinder resized.jpg (82.94 KiB) Viewed 1449 times
Power Steering Pump resized.jpg
Power Steering Pump resized.jpg (97.53 KiB) Viewed 1449 times

mike2u
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Re: scout car, brakes.

Post by mike2u » Sat Dec 14, 2013 3:53 pm

I have not replaced the master cylinder, and all of the brakes are rebuilt, with new wheel cylinders and new springs and brake shoes. I have just purchesed a MC rebuild kit, with intentions of rebuilding the MC, but have not got around to it yet. Also, I just wanted to ad, that I did at one point, have the brakes working well, but after sitting for a month or so, they have become dead.

So, if any of this new info helps to shed light on a possible problem, please let me know.
Also, Thanks for everyone's help.

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Re: scout car, brakes.

Post by G102 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:09 am

Hi printspic,

You have a very talented mechanic. Very impressive workmanship.

I'm curious where the pump belt is riding under the the pulley that adjusts the Gen. Belt. I don't see a second belt groove in the pulley.

What was the approx cost of the power steering components? Years ago a system like this was huge bucks, may e they are lower now, I'm just curious
Thanks, Gary

printzpic
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Re: scout car, brakes.

Post by printzpic » Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:08 am

Gary,

I'll pass on your kudos to my mechanic. There is a front groove on the fan pully, that is where the pump belt rides. The valve, pump, hoses and pully came out to around $1,500. The additional beauty of all this is that in the event of a pump or valve failure, we still have the mechanicl (armstrong) steering and mechanical brakes.

armoured_smiler
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Re: scout car, brakes.

Post by armoured_smiler » Mon Oct 10, 2016 9:33 am

Hi,

Very nice restore, but I would advise NOT to use the original fan belt tensioner, but to replace this cast item with a steel replica.

Over here I have 2 Scout cars (1 being Kevin Weatcroft's) have had their rads taken out by this bracket breaking at the 'web feet'.

Regards
Paul

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Re: scout car, brakes.

Post by RCASSIN » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:17 pm

Did you ever figure out the problem? I have no brakes and am about to work on them. I just got the SC. It came with no brakes... Thanks, Rob.
2000 USMC Kawasaki KLR 650
42 WLA Harley
41 600 Zundapp
41 M-20 BSA
76 Condor
42 Diamond T Halftrack
42 Scout car

G102
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Re: scout car, brakes.

Post by G102 » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:55 pm

since you have no brakes and have no idea what you bought mechanically, I would strongly suggest you get 4 jack stands, pull all 4 wheels and drums, and do a complete brake job,
If the brakes look like they were worked on inspect and replace whats bad , if any.

keep in mind everything is bad, and look for the good.
replace all 4 wheel cylinders
2- front flex hoses,
1- rear flex hose
shoe condition??? if nice clean and install
drums look scored, have them cut, may have to oversize your linings if you do.
replace your master cylinder

power booster- good luck, kits are impossible to find. you may have to find a modern unit .

don't forget about your parking brake linings.
some of these items I have in stock, I have info about seal replacement.
call if you need any help
Gary
630-257-1100

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Re: scout car, brakes.

Post by RCASSIN » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:46 pm

Thanks, Gary..Oh, Do you have a water pump?
2000 USMC Kawasaki KLR 650
42 WLA Harley
41 600 Zundapp
41 M-20 BSA
76 Condor
42 Diamond T Halftrack
42 Scout car


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