G503 Scout Car Database.

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Packhow75
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Re: G503 Scout Car Database.

Post by Packhow75 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:58 am

Joe DeMarco wrote:Hi Tim

6088611 was assigned to M3A1 Scout Car Ordnance Serial Number 15348. It would have been accepted in 1943. I like to record USA Numbers from any and all sources. Do you have any more info about the period photo? Such as was the SC in US service? In the US or overseas? Month / year of photo? Unit, etc?

Joe
Joe

Thanks for the confirmation - had been trying to verify if the vehicle was a "British WSC" or "American" - we suspected an American Ordnance number, rather than British Census number.

The SC with this number was in service in Germany with the British "Phantom" GHQ Liaison Regiment, attached to the US Army in 1945... history prior to then, not sure... but the Phantom chaps served with the US Army from D-Day to the end of the war, so could be they had the same vehicle too.

Dont know any more at the moment - but if someone owns this one... I can probably track down the names of the crew (British and American serving in the same vehicle), phantom patrol unit details and US army unit it served with at the time the photos were taken.

I suggest you google Phantom GHQ Liaison Regt for more general info.

Cheers

Tim
Ford GPW, 10cwt Trailer, 75mm Pack Howitzer x 2, M3A1 White Scout Car, M4A4 Sherman VC - s/n 4873

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Re: G503 Scout Car Database.

Post by Joe DeMarco » Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:26 pm

Hi Tim

You had written "hand-painted in white (not Stencilled and no "USA") 6088611" & you are in the UK, so I am assuming the veteran who had the photo is / was a Brit? As you know, Scout Cars sent to the Commonwealth as Lend Lease would have been assigned British Census Numbers, in place of (or overtop of) the original USA Registration Number. The Brit Numbers had a single letter prefix. The US Army didn't really use many Scout Cars by the end of 1943, so gave away a lot of those they already had overseas to their allies. These would not have had proper Brit WD Numbers, so in many cases, it would seem that recipients simply erased "USA" & kept the rest for an ID Number.

Joe

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Re: G503 Scout Car Database.

Post by tankbarrell » Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:49 am

Joe DeMarco wrote:These would not have had proper Brit WD Numbers, so in many cases, it would seem that recipients simply erased "USA" & kept the rest for an ID Number.

Joe
The British Army would not have done. There were many blocks of census numbers issued for in theatre allocations to ex-US forces vehicles. If taken into British service, it would have been issued a proper number. Whether it ever got painted on is another matter!

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Re: G503 Scout Car Database.

Post by Packhow75 » Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:03 am

Joe

Yes - the veteran is a Brit.

It's possible, but seems unlikely that the British Army would have retained the US Ordnance Number to me - have not heard of it being done before with anything else.

The only conclusion I can make is that the original "British" WSC supplied to the Phantom Patrol was rendered unserviceable and they simply replaced it with one from USA stock - hence the USA element being removed from the Ordnance number... and the roller still being present.

Tim

Joe DeMarco wrote:Hi Tim

You had written "hand-painted in white (not Stencilled and no "USA") 6088611" & you are in the UK, so I am assuming the veteran who had the photo is / was a Brit? As you know, Scout Cars sent to the Commonwealth as Lend Lease would have been assigned British Census Numbers, in place of (or overtop of) the original USA Registration Number. The Brit Numbers had a single letter prefix. The US Army didn't really use many Scout Cars by the end of 1943, so gave away a lot of those they already had overseas to their allies. These would not have had proper Brit WD Numbers, so in many cases, it would seem that recipients simply erased "USA" & kept the rest for an ID Number.

Joe
Ford GPW, 10cwt Trailer, 75mm Pack Howitzer x 2, M3A1 White Scout Car, M4A4 Sherman VC - s/n 4873

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Re: G503 Scout Car Database.

Post by Joe DeMarco » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:08 am

Hi Tim & Adrian,

As mentioned, I like to record USA Numbers from historic pix. There are a couple IWM photos that show a pair of M3-75 GMCs in service with the 1st King's Dragoon Guards in Italy, May 1944. M3-75s were rendered obsolete, and replaced by the the M10 TD in the US Army, and I suspect that any remaining supplies overseas were distributed on an unofficial basis to any and all takers. A few can be seen in Life Mag pix with US Army Ranger markings. In any case, the KDG units were obviously repainted in a disruptive camo scheme. Someone asked me about the number "4018057" that can be seen hand painted on one of the hoods. As with 6088611 on the "Phantom" GHQ Liaison Regiment Scout Car, it is an approriate USA Reg Number for an M3-75 (corresponding to Ord SN 1084). Since the unit was repainted, someone obviously put the number back on there, sans the "USA." I was asked about another M3-75 photographed in Germany in 1945. The crew are wearing berets, and the number "4053757" (no "USA," but appropriate) can be seen stencilled on the hood. The Commonwealth did not officially receive any of these as Lend Lease, and I'm assuming the number was painted back on there just to have something without getting the bureaucracy involved.

Joe


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Re: G503 Scout Car Database.

Post by Wasp » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:54 am

Joe DeMarco wrote:Hi Tim

6088611 was assigned to M3A1 Scout Car Ordnance Serial Number 15348. It would have been accepted in 1943. I like to record USA Numbers from any and all sources. Do you have any more info about the period photo? Such as was the SC in US service? In the US or overseas? Month / year of photo? Unit, etc?

Joe
Joe,

Are the hood numbers for a 1943 SC supposed to be 7 numbers?

Also, how do people choose hood numbers when they are not about to find the correct numbers or a near by number to extrapolate from?

Thanks.

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Re: G503 Scout Car Database.

Post by Joe DeMarco » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:46 pm

>Are the hood numbers for a 1943 SC supposed to be 7 numbers?

As best I can tell, all of the Scout Cars made at the White plant in Cleveland, & accepted in 1943 were assigned 7 digit USA Registration Numbers. (I would assume that the 749 made by Ford of Canada in 1943 would have been assigned British Type Census numbers.)

An educated guess for 1943 US built numbers would be SN 9885 / USA 6083148 thru SN 19376 / USA 6092639. For this range, the guys have reported the Manufacturer's Numbers they find stamped on the frames are six digits beginning with 26.


There is another 1943 range, that I think would have run SN 19403 / USA 6072773 thru SN 20084 / USA 6073454. However, no one on G503 has ever reported one from this range. Most likely they "disappeared" to Lend Lease, probably to the Soviets.


>Also, how do people choose hood numbers when they are not about to find the correct numbers or a near by number to extrapolate from?

The most common scenario for owners of White Scout Cars and Half Tracks is that all they can find on the vehicle is the six digit Manufacturer's Number stamped on the frame. Sorry to say that the original USA Reg Number cannnot be mathematically derived from the White MFR's SN. What I would do is, take my MFR's Number, & look at the Scout Car Database on page 1 of this thread. I'd look for the closest MFR's Number that also lists a known good USA Number, and use that USA Number or something close to it. At least that would be more appropriate than painting on "USA 1234567."

HTH,

Joe

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Re: G503 Scout Car Database.

Post by smithtw » Thu Feb 20, 2014 7:21 am

Joe, do you have any M3A1 scout car photos you can share?

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Re: G503 Scout Car Database.

Post by Packhow75 » Thu May 29, 2014 1:11 pm

Picture of my WSC data plate.
DataPlate-b.jpg
DataPlate-b.jpg (95.51 KiB) Viewed 1930 times
As you can see it has been re-stamped.

So, my assumption is - 268 626 - is the original number based on the style and arrangement of the other numbers.

Then at some stage later the plate was restamped with 260 892.

It wasnt obvious due to paint until this was cleaned that there are two numbers.

Has anyone seen this overstamping before - who would have done it and when?

Also, on this basis, is there anywhere else on the vehicle where I can find the true identity?

Cheers

Tim
Ford GPW, 10cwt Trailer, 75mm Pack Howitzer x 2, M3A1 White Scout Car, M4A4 Sherman VC - s/n 4873

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Re: G503 Scout Car Database.

Post by tankbarrell » Fri May 30, 2014 12:14 am

Tim, the chassis number is stamped on the lh front chassis rail between the rear spring hangar and the brake hose.

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Re: G503 Scout Car Database.

Post by Joe DeMarco » Sat May 31, 2014 10:02 am

Hi Tim,

This was reported on G503 earlier as Ord Serial Number 17436, MFRs No. 260892. No mention was made of the overstamping. If you look at the data collected on page 1 of this thread, you can see that that MFRs Serial No. does not really "fit" with the Ord Serial Number. The Ord S/N for 260892 would have been lower, like in the 94xx or 95xx range. The MFR's S/N that was overstamped appears to have been 268626. I would judge that that dataplate was originally installed on White Scout Car Ord S/N 17436/ MFRs' S/N 268626. As Adrian has pointed out, you should be able to find the White MFR's Number stamped on the frame behind the wheel on the driver's side. Both 260892 & 268626 were produced on Production Order T-3338 for 10000 units. However, 260892 would have been accepted in 1942, whereas 268626 would have been 1943. Is there any evidence of numbers painted on the hodds? FWIW, Ord SN 17436 = USA 6090699.

Joe

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Re: G503 Scout Car Database.

Post by Packhow75 » Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:07 pm

Joe DeMarco wrote:Hi Tim,

This was reported on G503 earlier as Ord Serial Number 17436, MFRs No. 260892. No mention was made of the overstamping. If you look at the data collected on page 1 of this thread, you can see that that MFRs Serial No. does not really "fit" with the Ord Serial Number. The Ord S/N for 260892 would have been lower, like in the 94xx or 95xx range. The MFR's S/N that was overstamped appears to have been 268626. I would judge that that dataplate was originally installed on White Scout Car Ord S/N 17436/ MFRs' S/N 268626. As Adrian has pointed out, you should be able to find the White MFR's Number stamped on the frame behind the wheel on the driver's side. Both 260892 & 268626 were produced on Production Order T-3338 for 10000 units. However, 260892 would have been accepted in 1942, whereas 268626 would have been 1943. Is there any evidence of numbers painted on the hodds? FWIW, Ord SN 17436 = USA 6090699.

Joe
Joe

Yup - it was reported earlier as 260892 with no mention of the overstamping because until the data plate was cleaned the other number wasnt evident.

However, upon review of the chassis, the number is very clearly 260892

Cheers

Tim
Ford GPW, 10cwt Trailer, 75mm Pack Howitzer x 2, M3A1 White Scout Car, M4A4 Sherman VC - s/n 4873

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Re: G503 Scout Car Database.

Post by Packhow75 » Thu Jun 26, 2014 8:12 am

Photoshop impression of what my WSC should look like once we have applied the Markings...
WSC-Phantom.jpg
WSC-Phantom.jpg (88.78 KiB) Viewed 1748 times
Tim
Ford GPW, 10cwt Trailer, 75mm Pack Howitzer x 2, M3A1 White Scout Car, M4A4 Sherman VC - s/n 4873

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Re: G503 Scout Car Database.

Post by Warren Duchesne » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:24 am

I have the data plate off of 227954 ord serial 884 . Does anyone own this scout car ? I have the data plate . Warren Duchesne

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Re: G503 Scout Car Database.

Post by clintm20 » Sun Jul 13, 2014 12:42 pm

228514 Ord# 1572 is for sale on ebay now. Not much left of it but the data plate is there.
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