Wrench Fluted Socket

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Tin Medic
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Wrench Fluted Socket

Post by Tin Medic » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:27 pm

I acquired these recently and thought I should post them up here. This package came sealed and I have included the link to a video showing them being opened for the first time. These wrenches are fully fluted and still coated in cosmoline. I welcome any questions and comments.

Here is the link to the "opening". https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=EDV2qb4vmdY
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2018-03-06 19.45.32.jpg
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Last edited by Tin Medic on Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wrench Fluted Socket

Post by Farrell Fox » Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:38 pm

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Re: Wrench Fluted Socket

Post by sincitygpw » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:15 pm

Hi All
Steve
Very Nice Find !!! :o
Thanks
Dave

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Re: Wrench Fluted Socket

Post by lucas » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:19 pm

HOME RUN!!!
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Re: Wrench Fluted Socket

Post by lucakiki » Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:08 am

Any for sale?
Luca

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Re: Wrench Fluted Socket

Post by Wingnutt » Tue Mar 13, 2018 2:57 am

Now that's a "grand opening"!! :) Well done, Steve.
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Re: Wrench Fluted Socket

Post by Silly's MB » Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:57 am

Nice find Steve, If I remember and understood Tom Woldbolt correctly the 8560 prefix on the Official Stock Number could date them from mid war to pre February 1945 .
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Re: Wrench Fluted Socket

Post by Wingnutt » Tue Mar 13, 2018 7:26 am

Farrell Fox wrote:
Mon Mar 12, 2018 5:38 pm
I guess we can all stop paying $100 a wrench for the semi-fluted wrenches.
Well, that depends.

If you're referring to the wrenches with only 7/32" of the ends fluted and stamped with a Federal Stock Number "41-W-2459", they are almost certainly early- to mid-war wrenches that the Ordnance Dept acquired. While that FSN doesn’t show up in any wartime jeep documents we know of, it precedes the first FSN that does show up in a wartime jeep document, which was 41-W-2459-500, with a suffix obviously appended later than the base number appearing on the wrenches.

Steve's fine NOS specimens, not marked (and not unexpectedly so – it would be difficult to stamp a fully-fluted variant), but originally sealed in a pkg marked with an Official Stock Number incorporating Federal Stock Number "41-W-2459-500", are almost certainly late war. As Silly's MB already alluded to, I believe Steve’s finds can be even more narrowly dated to mid 1944 to very early 1945. The evidence is fairly strong. First of all, we know that FSN appears in the EDIT: January and October 1944 SNL G503. Secondly, we know that OSN’s were a late war Ordnance Dept solution to the long-standing and on-going chaos with various stock number systems (“TAXI” numbers, Ordnance drawing numbers, FSN’s, etc) that preceded it. According to the “UNITED STATES ARMY IN WORLD WAR II, The Technical Services, THE ORDNANCE DEPARTMENT: PROCUREMENT AND SUPPLY (Center of Military History, U.S. Army, 1960), the format for the OSN was the FSN with a 4-digit prefix that could either be the SNL class (e.g., G503) or a stock class code. Tom has a copy of the second, 1 February 1945 dated edition of ORD 15-2 confirming the OSN format. In that edition, various jeep tools have a stock class prefix of “8603”, and that edition was the only edition used through 1949. But note that we’ve seen other jeep tools in NOS Ford pkg’s with the “8560” prefix, and the first edition of the ORD 15-2 was published on 15 June 1944. It seems likely that the stock class was “8560” in that edition, and that it changed from “8560” to “8603” in February 1945. Thirdly, note that the March 1945 ORD 5 shows the FSN for the Bristol wrench as 41-W-2461 (41-W-2460 was already taken), completing an FSN evolution from 41-W-2459 to 41-W-2459-500 to 41-W-2461, and further definitively boxing Steve’s wrenches into mid 1944 to very early 1945.

As for them being fully-fluted, they lend credence to the fully-fluted wrenches reportedly found in NOS Warner Gear pkging.

I think the quantity (10) and Ford branding on the pkg further suggests that these wrenches were intended for Ordnance Dept use. Tom has postulated that the Ordnance Dept was using Ford as a replacement/spares contractor. And I cannot picture a scenario in which Ford would have ten (10) Bristol wrenches in a Ford and OSN marked box. If they were coming from Warner, they’d be in Warner pkging, and I can’t imagine why Warner would be shipping them in such a low quantity. If they were for Ford use in a Ford factory (issuing to GPW’s), why would they be caked in cosmolene (long term storage preservative) and stapled up in a pkg like this at all?

To go back to Farrell’s original comment, then, I think the community now (and if I had to guess, for a very, very short time only :D ) has two terrific options.

- The 41-W-2459 wrenches have an early war FSN stamped on them as provenance, and they demonstrate the 7/32” fluted spec shown in the Willys factory drawing.

- Steve’s wrenches – should he decide to sell them – have indisputable jeep, NOS, Ford, and 1944/early 1945 provenance.
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Re: Wrench Fluted Socket

Post by Chuck Lutz » Tue Mar 13, 2018 3:25 pm

Quick question on that...

While a 41-W-2459 marked example does in fact appear on a Willys drawing. Can we automatically assume that an early FORD drawing of the same time frame (early being 1942) would indicate the wrench had the same short flutes on it? If there is a FORD drawing indicating early, mid or late Bristol wrenches were the SHORT flute style, I must have missed it. So...was Ford obtaining the short-fluted version from WARNER and when, if they did at all, obtain them from a different source and was that source ever producing the short-flute version. While initial GPW production may very well have obtained the short-flute version from Warner (or another vendor), exactly WHEN they changed to the fully fluted version is something I have not seen.

On the other hand, the WARNER Bristol wrenches found in the folded papers with an "A-1492" marking are apparently from WARNER and are dated "7-42". That would seem to indicate that since these are FULLY FLUTED that by this date WARNER was supplying the Bristol in this style.

With that in mind, I still feel that the short-flute style was the original one for a GPW perhaps but that changed early enough in 1942 for the fully fluted one marked "7-42" (July 1942) to be what was provided at least with the "A-1492" marking on it indicating Willys was at that time using that style. With the availability of fully fluted versions now being found in FORD packaging and the envelope below with a "7-42" date on it....why would there be any assumption that the change occurred in 1944 or 1945? Sure that package could have a late war marking on it....but that does in no way indicate WHEN the change from the short-flute to the fully fluted style took place, does it?

What it DOES do....is tell us that Ford DID supply the fully fluted style and matching that up with the "7-42" marked envelope with a fully fluted Bristol wrench would indicate to me that the change took place PRIOR to 7-42.
Bristol Early and Late.jpg
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Bristol Wrench NOS Marking JR.jpg
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Bristol Early and Late.jpg
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Bristol Wrench NOS JR.jpg
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Re: Wrench Fluted Socket

Post by Wingnutt » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:00 pm

Chuck Lutz wrote:Can we automatically assume that an early FORD drawing of the same time frame (early being 1942) would indicate the wrench had the same short flutes on it?
I don't automatically assume anything, but, given the fact that Willys got all its specs from the QMC, in the form of ES 422, and standardization was an edict, I would expect Ford to have the same specs for the same tool, not different specs for the same tool. But that doesn't really have anything to do with Tin Medic's wrenches though.
Chuck Lutz wrote:why would there be any assumption that the change occurred in 1944 or 1945?
No idea. Who made that assumption? If you're referring to my post, I certainly didn't. I am only addressing Tin Medic's wrenches. When the change took place is irrelevant to the fact that his particular fully-fluted cosmo-coated NOS wrenches are in an unadulterated NOS pkg bearing a late war OSN. I am not making any other arguments. I'm not even addressing the subject.
Chuck Lutz wrote: Sure that package could have a late war marking on it, but that does in no way indicate WHEN the change from the short-flute to the fully fluted style took place, does it?
First of all, there's no "could" about it - the OSN on that pkg is late war. The answer to your question is no, again, and if you're referring to my post, again, I certainly didn't say anything about when such a change took place.
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Re: Wrench Fluted Socket

Post by d42jeep » Wed Mar 14, 2018 12:20 am

Steve,
Historic find! Congratulations! :D
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Re: Wrench Fluted Socket

Post by Chuck Lutz » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:43 am

Quick question #2...

If in fact Willys got the specs from the QMC, (short flutes) then I would expect that they also got a change/update/option from the QMC for the full-fluted style as found in the "7-42" marked examples. So....for Willys at least, there should be a document indicating the acceptance/circumstances of the full-fluted style. That would narrow down the period in which the short fluted style was right for an MB.

However....ESS "standardization" was not exactly an edict. For example, compare an open-end Willys marked SPW with a closed-end GPW marked SPW. Not EXACTLY the same design! In addition, if I recall correctly, the LENGTH of the steel rod that is inserted in them is different. While they both do the same job on a GPW or an MB, there are slight differences...and I wonder if Ford went into production using ESS information that would either allow for the fully-fluted style or...by the time Ford geared up, Willys was already moving to the fully-fluted style.

This still leaves us GPW guys wondering if the change occurred early enough for Ford to ignore the short-flute style from the beginning. I can't recall if a Ford drawing of the Bristol wrench has surfaced previously so GPW guys are still wondering. Willys guys have some more info to make their choices.

Maybe just saying the short flutes are EARLY to MID 1942 would be better than saying they are EARLY to MID WAR?
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Re: Wrench Fluted Socket

Post by Wingnutt » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:32 am

Chuck Lutz wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:43 am
Maybe just saying the short flutes are EARLY to MID 1942 would be better than saying they are EARLY to MID WAR?
Note again that I didn't say anything in this thread about any Bristol wrenches with "short flutes" other than those with the 41-W-2459 FSN stamped in them, which are clearly Ordnance Dept issue (not Willys factory issue), and clearly came before the use of FSN 41-W-2459-500 for the same Ordnance Dept issue tool. As of right now, the earliest date that I know of for that -500 FSN is January 1944 (SNL G503). It may very well have been in use prior - I just don't have or know of any documents that establish that. So I'm okay with early- to mid-war for the 41-W-2459 stamped wrenches until that -500 date can be moved to the left, personally. You, and anyone else who disagrees, are free to characterize the FSN sequence any way you want, of course.
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Re: Wrench Fluted Socket

Post by Tin Medic » Wed Mar 14, 2018 3:44 pm

lucakiki wrote:Any for sale?
Yes, I do have a few for sale. Please contact me for info.


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Re: Wrench Fluted Socket

Post by Chuck Lutz » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:08 pm

So...to conclude this....

a) we have "late-war" Ford packaging for the fully-fluted but there might also be "early-war" packaging with different numbers on it. Therefore one might assume that at least in the '44-'45 era, GPWs would have had this style

b) at least as early as 7-42, Willys was using the fully-fluted style

c) the short-fluted style are "Ordnance Dept." procured wrenches and nothing has appeared to tie them to either an MB or a GPW

Would that be correct?

Also...this is for Steve....can you measure the long side and the short side outer dimensions for us please?

Thanks!
Chuck Lutz

GPW 17963 4/24/42 Chester, PA. USA 20113473 (USA est./Tom W.)
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