The "Longshanks" Survey: Get out yer Offset DBE's!

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Re: The "Longshanks" Survey: Get out yer Offset DBE's!

Post by Gordon_M » Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:17 pm

Silly's MB wrote:That's a different company Gordon. Thomas Williams I believe.
Early ones are often marked with a TW in a circle.
Ah, OK, I just saw WILLIAMS and the size. I've seen them use Superslim as a trademark too I think
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Re: The "Longshanks" Survey: Get out yer Offset DBE's!

Post by Chuck Lutz » Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:42 pm

No 8029B in the Oct. 1940 catalog either.
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Re: The "Longshanks" Survey: Get out yer Offset DBE's!

Post by henry501 » Sun Mar 20, 2016 1:26 am

Greg,

As usual another excellent topic and research. To add to your survey... As you know from our PM's and other conversations I am trying to stock my GMTK with Craftsman tools (no small feat in itself) and can confirm that in all of my searching (admittedly not as many months and years as yours and the other tools guys) I have yet to come upon a long offset DBE in the 11/16" x 3/4" size.

Not to hijack this thread because the following is going to be Craftsman specific even though it will provide some addition research to the specific topic at hand (so please feel free to reply via PM if you want) but even more interesting to me is the statement you made up thread:

"But, note that the long 12-point DBE part of L-216 applies to 45* offset and 15* angle patterns. And, we know that many Mfgrs were making long DBEs with 11/16 x 3/4 openings in 15* angle patterns and wartime vintage finishes and markings (I have owned Blue-Point, Williams, Craftsman CI, Plomb, and Vlchek, at least). So, while the L-216 helps confirm the notion of it being an odd size, it doesn't explain why there is such a dearth (if not outright absence, so far) of them in the 45* offset pattern."

Especially the part about the Craftsman Cl long 15* DBE in the 11/16 x 3/4" size because... To date, I have never encountered this particular wrench in a wartime correct Craftsman in long, short, angled, offset or any combination thereof (don't know if they made that size combo in a DBE post war and also realize that my searching has not gone on as long as yours and other guys). The preceding statement might easily be explained away by the fact that, as I point out, I have not been searching for GMTK tools nearly as long as the rest of you guys so have not "found" this particular wrench YET. However, I have a 1942 dated "Craftsman Mechanics Tools sold by Sears, Roebuck and Co." catalog (which lists the Craftsman as well as, where applicable, the Dunlop and Fulton brands) and while (all available?, see my conclusion below) long and short DBE's in offset and angled style heads are listed, the 11/16" x 3/4" head combination is not listed -- neither in longs or shorts, angled or offset -- anywhere in that catalog. Additionally I've not found any mention or photos of a Craftsman wartime or pre-war 11/16" x 3/4" DBE in offset or angled in the Craftsman pages on Alloy Artifacts. Finally, none of my ePay searches for Craftsman DBE's, to date, have yielded a wartime 11/16" x 3/4" DBE.

So, unless my short amount of time in this game or possible flawed research/search and observation skills are a factor, my conclusion based upon the above and at this point in my searching is:

1.) Craftsman did not make a 11/16" x 3/4" DBE in any length or angle/offset configuration pre-war or wartime, or

2.) Craftsman made the 11/16" x 3/4" during WWII but only and specifically for the US military and my catalog is only showing Craftsman tools available to the PUBLIC in 1942, i.e. the 11/16" x 3/4" DBE is "restricted", or

3.) Craftsman made the 11/16" x 3/4" During WWII but after 1942.

So... I am extremely curious to know the circumstances behind (where you found or better yet, if you still have and want to sell or trade) your Craftsman Cl long DBE with 11/16 x 3/4 openings in 15* angle pattern as I would love to add it to my kit... or at least gain a better understanding of what I may be misunderstanding. :D

Thanks again and please let me know if you need more info. from the catalog for this topic.

Thanks again,
Henry

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Re: The "Longshanks" Survey: Get out yer Offset DBE's!

Post by henry501 » Sun Mar 20, 2016 2:49 am

Guys,

Further to my particular conundrum with no Craftsman 11/16" x 3/4" DBE's... No sooner did I get done writing and posting my post immediately above but I started searching other new topics that have come up and discovered something in the following thread viewtopic.php?f=48&t=270709

Part of the way down the thread in Roger 's (Silly's MB) reply post he shows a photo of the listings for the Williams "Superwrench" DBE"s in the 1942 Hardware catalog. Surprise!!! There is no listing for a 11/16" x 3/4" DBE. I quickly (and that may be the key to any misunderstanding I have) looked thorough the rest of the postings of WWII era catalog photos presented in that thread and this one and they don't show a listing for ANY DBE's with a head combination of 11/16" x 3/4" so...

1.) did Williams not make this size DBE either? Even though Greg (Wingnutt), and presumably others have them (at least the 15* angled style) in their collections?

2.) is it listed further down or on a different page in the catalog?

3.) does the catalog not list it because they did not stock it?

4.) does the catalog not list it because it was only available to the military?

Unless I am completely missing something or otherwise out of my mind, my quick interpretation based upon the info. I have on Craftsman and in these two threads seems to indicate that DURING WWII neither Williams (as far as the "Superwrench" brand) nor Craftsman produced ANY DBE's (long, short, angled or offset or any combination thereof) with heads 11/16" x 3/4", yet Wingnutt (and others?) have or had them in their collection.

What am I missing here?

Thanks very much,
Henry

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Re: The "Longshanks" Survey: Get out yer Offset DBE's!

Post by Wingnutt » Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:22 am

henry501 wrote:DURING WWII neither Williams (as far as the "Superwrench" brand) nor Craftsman produced ANY DBE's (long, short, angled or offset or any combination thereof) with heads 11/16" x 3/4", yet Wingnutt (and others?) have or had them in their collection.
Henry,

It didn't really register with me that you were collecting a GMTK, let alone a Craftsman-oriented GMTK - I thought you were going after upper echelon tools. But I do recall, now, that you do have a 1942 Craftsman catalog. That is a rare (unique as far as I know) and valuable commodity in and of itself in ANY tool collecting community. I have never seen one or heard of anyone having one.

Anyway, on the subject at hand, I just went through a bunch of old folders in my Photobucket album and couldn't find a CI in 15* angle pattern with 11/16 x 3/4 openings, so I must have been mistaken. Thanks for double-checking my notes, and sorry for any false hope that gave you - you may be out of luck there. If you look at my chart (just updated), Craftsman is not alone in shying away from that size in the 15* pattern. The best choices for the quickest completion, in my opinion, are Snap-On, Plomb, and Williams.

On that last note, Williams definitely made a 7XXX series ALLOY STEEL long DBE Superrench in 15* angled pattern with 11/16 x 3/4 openings. I had a complete matching set of cadmium-plated examples in my "Living History" kit.

Image

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Image

If anyone else notices any mistake, please point them out. This exercise was a little maddening in scope.
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Re: The "Longshanks" Survey: Get out yer Offset DBE's!

Post by Chuck Lutz » Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:12 am

Williams catalog 10/40 lists a 7029 (11/16 & 25/32)...... but not a 7029B (11/16 &3/4).

Sounds like the intro of that elusive combination came later.
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Re: The "Longshanks" Survey: Get out yer Offset DBE's!

Post by Wingnutt » Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:57 am

After 1941. See here: viewtopic.php?p=1576624#p1576624.
edit: That's a potentially misguided way to put it. The most accurate way of describing the situation for Williams 8029B (45* offset 11/16 x 3/4), so far as we know right now, is not before catalog #401, which is no sooner than 1947, and could be early 1950s, per AA.
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Re: The "Longshanks" Survey: Get out yer Offset DBE's!

Post by mudbox » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:58 am

Wingnutt, while it's not a deep offset, I thought you might like to see this wrench I recently acquired.
Near identical to your 7029B 3/4" and 11/16" DBE, but 'Chrome Alloy' and marked 7029 and 'Special'
If you look at the pic, you can see where the shank was ground down before the 3/4" stamp was applied.
Image
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Re: The "Longshanks" Survey: Get out yer Offset DBE's!

Post by Wingnutt » Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:49 pm

mudbox wrote:Near identical to your 7029B 3/4" and 11/16" DBE, but 'Chrome Alloy' and marked 7029 and 'Special'
If you look at the pic, you can see where the shank was ground down before the 3/4" stamp was applied.
Holy crap! A Williams grind-off! :o Talk about a transitional!!! It's the missing link between the 7029 (11/16" x 25/32") Chrome-Moly Superrench production the catalogs show them making prior to the war, up through 1941, perhaps early 1942, and the 7029B Alloy Steel Superrench production in 1942 and forward. What these markings demonstrate is amazing! They had no long 15* pattern DBE's to meet the MVMTS spec sizes. So they took their 7029's, milled the 25/32" box end down exactly 1/32", grinded the old size off the shank, stamped it with "3/4" and "SPECIAL", and....... voi-freaking-la - a 41-W-603! :D

I wonder how many they made before they retooled.

I would never let that thing go if I were you. And if you want to make a Superrench Chrome-Alloy set of long 15* DBEs, I have a spare Chrome-Alloy 7731A. The logo is not very legible so I would sell it to you for postage.
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Re: The "Longshanks" Survey: Get out yer Offset DBE's!

Post by mudbox » Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:38 pm

Wingnutt wrote:What these markings demonstrate is amazing! They had no long 15* pattern DBE's to meet the MVMTS spec sizes. So they took their 7029's, milled the 25/32" box end down exactly 1/32", grinded the old size off the shank, stamped it with "3/4" and "SPECIAL", and....... voi-freaking-la - a 41-W-603! :D
I was thinking the same thing. They needed to come up with something to match the spec, and a milled down wrench would be the perfect stop-gap solution.
I honestly didn't know what I was getting. I'm hunting for one more wrench, across a few brands, just to come up with one brand matching set and I restored to the auction site. I thought this wrench would be it for me, but it turned out to be "Chrome Alloy' instead of 'Alloy Steel'. So, the search is ongoing.

Wingnutt wrote:I wonder how many they made before they retooled.
I couldn't even begin to guess. Perhaps a few hundred to meet an initial order? :?:
Wingnutt wrote:I would never let that thing go if I were you.
I would consider a trade for a Bonney 585-4 DOE! :lol: :lol:
Wingnutt wrote:And if you want to make a Superrench Chrome-Alloy set of long 15* DBEs, I have a spare Chrome-Alloy 7731A. The logo is not very legible so I would sell it to you for postage.
Thanks for the offer! That's 3/4" and 7/8", correct?

I'm confused about the numbering system and when it may have seen a change...
Your 'Alloy Steel' wrenches upthread, are all the 7XXX series. But I now have 2 'Chrome Alloy' wrenches across both 4XXX series and 7XXX series.
Here is a 7/8" and 13/16" that's 4731B, and the 3/4" and 11/16" 'special' that's 7029.
Image
And here, I have 2 'Alloy Steel' DBEs that match yours upthread, but both are 4XXX series, not 7XXX series.
1" and 15/16" is 4033C and 7/8" and 13/16" is 4731B. :?: :?:
Image
Different Alloy composition? Am I missing something?
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Re: The "Longshanks" Survey: Get out yer Offset DBE's!

Post by Wingnutt » Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:15 pm

Despite what AA says (and note that their own examples also seem to contradict their own conclusions), there is only ONE distinction that I have noticed between Williams 4XXX and 7XXX Superrenches... The 4XXX series came in Chrome-Alloy (1941-early 1942) and Alloy (1942->) and both those compositions can be seen in natural steel and cadmium-plated finishes. The 7XXX series also came in Chrome-Alloy (1941-early 1942) and Alloy (1942->) compositions, and the Alloys can be seen in natural steel and cadmium finishes, but I have never seen a 7XXX Chrome-Alloy Superrench with anything but a chrome-plated finish.
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Re: The "Longshanks" Survey: Get out yer Offset DBE's!

Post by d42jeep » Thu Apr 07, 2016 10:57 pm

This is from the 1941 Cornwell catalog posted here. Check out the BW32. I'm not sure if they are offset enough, though.
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Re: The "Longshanks" Survey: Get out yer Offset DBE's!

Post by Wingnutt » Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:56 am

Hi Don,

I remember thinking those were regular pattern, or at least some sort of hybrid (a al Vlchek or late war Barcalo), because Cornwell does advertise 45* offsets in the same catalog...
Cornwell offset.jpg
Cornwell offset.jpg (69.86 KiB) Viewed 2227 times
...but I can see what you mean by shallow offset, and AA does include some examples from the same series, and they do look like true offsets. Very shallow offsets, but definitely an offset. If not a cigar, it's closer than anything else.
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Re: The "Longshanks" Survey: Get out yer Offset DBE's!

Post by mudbox » Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:15 pm

I found this one today at the flea. I'm not sure of the manufacturer, but it's a deep offset with 3/4" and 11/16" openings.
At less than a buck, it followed me home anyway.
Anyone familiar with WILDE K.C. MD. #135
Full size image HERE.
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Re: The "Longshanks" Survey: Get out yer Offset DBE's!

Post by Wingnutt » Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:45 am

That's K.C., MO, not MD, mud. Wilde is still in operation in Kansas City, believe it or not. (Here is a link... http://www.harryepstein.com/blogs/a-tri ... e-tool-co/ ... to a little blog piece that the venerable Harry J Epstein's did on them last year.) They've been around since the 30's at least. Like Moore, they made some of their own stools, but they made a lot of tools for others, including Western Auto Stores. They had a large contract with the Navy in 1942. Wilde is most popular here for a valve lifter, but the pliers in Greg Hines' complete set of "41-W-900" marked ignition wrenches were "WILDE" marked, and I found 1950's era "WILDE" marked ignition wrenches in a Signal Corps kit . For that reason, I think they are the leading candidate as the makers of the "41-W-900" marked wrenches. Whether those are wartime or not has not been proven. Your DBE is no later than early to mid 1942 with that CV marking, but it is good to know someone with a little more military credibility than Dunlap was making that combination of opening sizes in the 45* pattern. Unless the ORD specified it (March 45 ORD 5) and never bought any, someone had to be making them for some as yet unknown application late war.
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