GMTK MVMTS----TOOLKIT---UPDATE
- pjones
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Re: GMTK MVMTS----TOOLKIT---UPDATE
Thanks Luca. Given that there is always room for improvement I dropped my prior thread title "Mission Complete".
Thanks Greg. As usual much better said than I could put it but the poorly explained point I was trying to make was the same.
Phil
Thanks Greg. As usual much better said than I could put it but the poorly explained point I was trying to make was the same.
Phil
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- mudbox
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Re: GMTK MVMTS----TOOLKIT---UPDATE
That's a great looking set of bits, Phil! Who knows when New Britain would have changed the size over. If they were making 9/16" in 1940, chances are the Armed Forces may have procured some early on. Looks great in your kit regardless.pjones wrote:Here is a recent change I made to my set and wanted to share. After the higher resolution pictures recently posted by Roger and some prompting from Jason I decided to give up my Walden DLB set and replace it with a set of New Britain DLBs.
Nice Bill! They're coming out of the woodwork now. Again, that's a fantastic looking set of bits!mrbill wrote:I just recently found an NS91, too. Looks like the same 9/16"-37/64" as yours.
Well, two if you count the Craftsman (H) bit that I recently acquired...Wingnutt wrote:...they started making an NS-91 drag link bit with a blade width of 47/64" instead. Mudbox has one.
Note the remnants of O.D. green paint remaining on the bit...
-Jason
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Re: GMTK MVMTS----TOOLKIT---UPDATE
I don't think it was poorly explained, just that we tend to use shorthand when talking to each other (me too!), which could be misleading to newbies.pjones wrote:
Thanks Greg. As usual much better said than I could put it but the poorly explained point I was trying to make was the same.
Phil
The sizes not being included in the SNL is one of those "technicality" issues until we get some wartime Fed Specs.
And trust me, if I had a reason to go with NB DLBs vs. Walden DLBs in a keeper set (brand matching, brand preference, etc), I wouldn't hesitate to use a 9/16" if that's what was in the 3-pc set I had found, at least while looking for the 47/64".
I have yet to see a complete spec-correct GMTK, including my own sets, and I have knowingly put much less negligible tolerances in my kits (e.g., I still think the Blue Point 060 is the best looking offset screwdriver).
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Re: GMTK MVMTS----TOOLKIT---UPDATE
Nice! Is that 9/16" or 47/64"?mudbox wrote:Well, two if you count the Craftsman (H) bit that I recently acquired...
I just checked the 1942 Craftsman catalog. That still lists the smallest bit as 9/16". So New Britain apparently changed from 9/16" to 47/64" sometime between 1942 (per Craftsman catalog) and 1948 (per None Better catalog). This information can still be read several different ways. The Army was either:
(a) buying the DLB set from New Britain (None Better, Craftsman) in 1942 regardless of the smallest bit not meeting the spec
(b) not buying the DLB set from New Britain (None Better, Craftsman) in 1942 because it didn't meet the spec
(c) or the spec was 9/16" for the smallest bit in 1942.
Interestingly, while people have had complete spec-matching Walden sets, according to the Walden Catalog No 140 (dated July 1941), Walden was only making the 1130 (15/16") bit at that time. That seems to be prevalent across industry. In the SK 1943 catalog, only a 40809 (15/16") is listed. In the 1943 Blackhawk catalog, only the 49979 (15/16") is listed. In the 1943 Bonney catalog, the 4001 (15/16") is listed along with a 4002 (1-1/4"). Plomb was similar with a 5444 (15/16") and a 5446 (1").
Who have we seen complete spec-matching sets from? Walden, NB, and Thorsen, right? No period Thorsen catalog to check and no Walden later than 1941. Walden obviously started making all three at some point. And we don't know when Thorsen did, only that they did. (How could I forget Snap-On!?)
Last edited by Wingnutt on Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- mudbox
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Re: GMTK MVMTS----TOOLKIT---UPDATE
It's the same as my NB, 47/64".Wingnutt wrote:Nice! Is that 9/16" or 47/64"?
Don't forget about TRUTH.Wingnutt wrote:Who have we seen complete spec-matching sets from? Walden, NB, and Thorsen, right?
-Jason
Last edited by mudbox on Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GMTK MVMTS----TOOLKIT---UPDATE
I think Todd might have a 1930s Truth catalog. I'll check later. The only way to solve this dilemma is to find Fed Specs or an industry source that dates prior to 1945.
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Re: GMTK MVMTS----TOOLKIT---UPDATE
Todd has both of my Truth catalogs right now.
Correction, he has my 34 Truth. My 38 Truth catalog is in the house somewhere.
Correction, he has my 34 Truth. My 38 Truth catalog is in the house somewhere.
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- Wingnutt
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Re: GMTK MVMTS----TOOLKIT---UPDATE
The 1934 Truth lists one DLB, model number R-5, with no size provided. (My guess would be 15/16".) Check the 1938 when you find it, but I suspect it's the same.Tin Medic wrote:Correction, he has my 34 Truth. My 38 Truth catalog is in the house somewhere.
I don't want to keep jamming Phil's thread up with this research (which should probably have its own thread, but most of those threads have tools that were in the 1939 Fed Specs I guess...), so I won't include all the details, but suffice it to say I just looked at the DLB's in the catalogs for all the major mfgr's on Todd's site (including Walden, Blackhawk, SK, Thorsen, Truth, OTC, Cornwell, Williams, and Bonney...), from the 1930's, 1940's, and 1950's. And I double-checked the Snap-On catalogs from the Collecting Snap-On site.
Summarized Findings:
- The ONLY Mfgr I can find that was advertising the production of the three (3) GMTK-spec bits well before the war was Snap-On, with their A-15 (1-3/16"), A-17 (15/16"), and A-26 (47/64") bits. Lots of single DLB's, always a 15/16" blade, with everyone else. Some Mfgrs added a second bit, usually 1-1/4" (Thorsen, Williams) or 13/16" (OTC). Other than Snap-On, New Britain comes the closest to the GMTK spec before the war, with the 9/16" bit instead of the 47/64".
- We know NB was making them to the GMTK spec during the war, just not sure when, sometime after the 1942 Craftsman catalog was published. And we know that Walden, Thorsen, and Truth were also making them during the war, because those have also been found.
- Snap-On and New Britain are the only Mfgrs I can find that were advertising the same three bits after the war. Bonney's 1958 catalog has a set of three (3) DLB's, including Fed Spec citations (GGG-W-641B, Type IV, Format A, Class 1), but they were two (2) 15/16" blades (with different thicknesses - 9/64" and 7/64"), and a 1 " blade.
IMPORTANT TO NOTE that the DLB bits were not part of the GMTK until the October 1942 SNL N-19, so it sure looks like the federal government followed Snap-On's lead, and New Britain or any other Mfgr didn't have a reason to until they were included in the Federal Standard Stock Catalog.
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Re: GMTK MVMTS----TOOLKIT---UPDATE
Greg, FWIW in the repacks I found Walden, Truth, New Britain and Bonney DLBs. I found 1129, 1130 and 1131 Waldens. I found NB in the 15/16" and 1 3/16" sizes. I found Truth and Bonney in the 1 3/16" size but not the other sizes.
Phil
Phil
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Re: GMTK MVMTS----TOOLKIT---UPDATE
Thanks, Phil. I think I remembered all that except for the Bonney. I don't recall anyone finding all three GMTK-spec bits from Bonney, though. That list is still Snap-On (several of us), New Britain (mud), Walden (many of us), Truth (mud), and Thorsen (Robin's NOS set) as far as I have recorded. If anyone has had all three from Bonney, please pipe up. Walden is an interesting case. The 1940 Walden catalog has an 1130 (15/16") and an 1129 listed, but the 1129 is a 5/8" bit. So that's very similar to NB changing the width on their smallest DLB at some point, probably when they added the 1131 (1-3/16") bit, and probably late 1942.
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Re: GMTK MVMTS----TOOLKIT---UPDATE
Having been checking specs recently against the L216 limitation order the Drag Link Bits were only permitted to be manufactured in the 3 sizes, 47/64", 15/64" and 1/3/16", from May 29th 1943 until the order was revoked on May 8th 1945.
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- mudbox
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Re: GMTK MVMTS----TOOLKIT---UPDATE
That's an interesting tidbit. And is obviously why New Britain changed the size on their smallest bit during the war.Silly's MB wrote:Having been checking specs recently against the L216 limitation order the Drag Link Bits were only permitted to be manufactured in the 3 sizes, 47/64", 15/64" and 1/3/16", from May 29th 1943 until the order was revoked on May 8th 1945.
I went back to the ORD 5 supply catalog thread to find the bits.
Which sites Snap-On and Cornwell as manufacturers, but the BIT manufacturer code seem like New Britain to me.Wingnutt wrote: 41-B-645 Type VII, Class B, Fed Spec GGG-B-383 BIT, socket wrench, drag link, 1/2 in. square drive, in set
Consisting of:
41-B-647 BIT, 47/64 x 0.109 x 1-19/32 in.
41-B-648 BIT, 15/16 x 0.150 x 1-19/32 in.
41-B-649 BIT, 1-3/16 x 0.150 x 1-11/16 in.
Mfgrs codes used for other socket wrench drag link bits: Snap-On, Cornwell
I belive I've seen all 3 correct sizes from Cornwell for sale at different time on on the auction site, but I've never bought any.
Roger, do you see anything in there about the long DBE in 3/4" x 11/16" (41-W-603)?
-Jason
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Re: GMTK MVMTS----TOOLKIT---UPDATE
Thanks Roger. Your limitation order post came at a very good time. I have been contemplating changing back to my Walden set. However, it looks like the New Britain DLBs in my set may still yet be correct given that my set is based on the SNL N-19, a 1942 manual.
phil
phil
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Re: GMTK MVMTS----TOOLKIT---UPDATE
The reason New Britain changed the size of their smallest bit (9/16") is because it did not meet federal specifications, which wanted a 47/64" blade. Keep in mind that the purpose of the Limitation Order L-216 was to optimize the manufacturing base tool production for military priorities. I think the significance of the tidbit is that from May 29, 1943 to May 8, 1945 is the only time Mfgrs were allowed to make drag link bits in the GMTK sizes for their own commercial inventories. Not before then. EDIT: Unless I am misreading the way Roger is reporting it.mudbox wrote:That's an interesting tidbit. And is obviously why New Britain changed the size on their smallest bit during the war.
Roger - can you post the actual schedule in the L-216 thread?
There was no Mfgrs' code provided for the GMTK DLB's in the ORD 5. Mfgr's codes were only used in the Spec column when there was no Fed Spec or ORD TAC ES spec for an item. The spec in the Spec column for the GMTK DLB's was "Type VII Class B, Fed Spec GGG-B-383" (which I don't have). And note that New Britain's Mfgr's code is NBM. If you're referring literally to "BIT", that is the part. BIT, socket wrench, drag link.mudbox wrote:..but the BIT manufacturer code seem like New Britain to me.
We’ve been through that already, although I can’t find the thread. The discussion was on a different thread than Roger’s L-216 thread, unfortunately. But if you go to the L-216 thread, Schedule 1 (Wrenches), posted first, include DBE's. See section IIII (a.), Double head, 12 point, alloy, 15* or 45* offset (short length), and section III (b.), Double head, 12 point, alloy, 15* or 45* offset (regular length). There is no 11/16” x 3/4” size combination listed, which means that it was not allowed to be produced for commercial inventory. (Note that the way the L-216 schedules work, tools that are allowed to be manufactured are listed, tools that are not allowed to be manufactured (hence, limited) are not listed.mudbox' wrote:Roger, do you see anything in there about the long DBE in 3/4" x 11/16"
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Re: GMTK MVMTS----TOOLKIT---UPDATE
I realized that New Britain's code was NBM shortly after I posted that... but the board was 'down' when I went to edit my reply. Yeah, for whatever reason, I thought BIT was the mfg. code for a few minutes. Too much sun today I guess.Wingnutt wrote: There was no Mfgrs' code provided for the GMTK DLB's in the ORD 5. Mfgr's codes were only used in the Spec column when there was no Fed Spec or ORD TAC ES spec for an item. The spec in the Spec column for the GMTK DLB's was "Type VII Class B, Fed Spec GGG-B-383" (which I don't have). And note that New Britain's Mfgr's code is NBM. If you're referring literally to "BIT", that is the part. BIT, socket wrench, drag link.
-Jason
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