GMTK Toolboxes

[Gordon_M]

Wipe down with light oil and just put it in the truck. I wonder if the yellow paint splashes were from when it was stencilled?

[Hartofoak]

What a wonderful find Don. Congratulations and worth every penny!
Not including the Hamilton 41-B-1840 embossed versions (except Brett's below), I make that seven (EDIT:now eight) stencilled, 41-B-1840 type, boxes that have bee found so far - have I missed any?

1&2.Hartofoak: McAleer type, MVMTS 41-T-3538 with black stencilling.
3.Silly's MB: Union type, MVMTS 41-T-3538 with black stencilling.
4.Wingnutt: Hamilton, GMTS 41-T-3534-75 with black (on white) stencilling. EDITED: following post from Wingnutt below.
5.pjones: Union type (?) ex Wynmkr, GMTS 41-T-3534-75 with yellow stencilling.
6.D42jeep: McAleer type, GMTS 41-T-3534-75 with yellow stencilling.
7.Brett Nicholls: Hamilton 41-B-1840, Machinists 41-T-3537 with black stencilling.
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=270959
8. pjones: Hamilton with "41-B-1840" in black stencilling. EDITED following post from pjones below.
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=270959#p1577781

Brett 41-T-3537.jpg (158.82 KiB) Viewed 3253 times

[Wingnutt]

Cliff,

Thanks for taking the time to list those! I totally missed Brett's box! I must've been on a hiatus when that was posted.

Couple comments:

Mine is a GMTS 41-T-3534-75. The marking format is exactly like yours and Roger's (that is, in nomenclature style... "1 EA. TOOL-SET GEN. MECHANICS"), which is probably why you're subconsciously thinking it was an MVMTS. (One other note on mine: the background is white. That's what the TM for export marking calls for - black on white background. And mine has the tonnage marking still on it. It just looks cream from fading.)

Note that Phil's and Don's are not marked nomenclature style, but straight out... "GENERAL MECHANIC SET". The distinction is just as important as the stencil color distinction, in my opinion, in helping us try to date and sequence them, if possible.

Note that while Brett's is a 'Machinist" box, not for an MVMTS or a GMTS, his, too, is marked nomenclature style, with black stencil, exactly like yours, Roger's and mine. 1 EA. TOOL-SET, and then the name of the tool-set.

Considering that we know the MVMTS preceded the GMTS, yours and Roger's had to come first among all these boxes, and they are assuredly wartime, since they were superseded by the GMTS. Brett's may be as old as yours and Roger's. Mine, as a GMTS, has to follow chronologically, but since it's marked the same as yours, Roger's, and Brett's, almost certainly wartime.

We have no way of knowing if the boxes marked in yellow and in a different format are WWII, but I would be quick to point out that we don't know that they're not, either. I do think it makes sense to consider them later than the other styles with the black stenciling and the nomenclature format, but that's probably as much as we can say without more info. The Ordnance Dept may have switched to that during the war, or they could be from the same theater or unit, which happened to do things a little differently. A secondary reference (e.g., period photo, information on stenciling SOP, etc) would help.

Does anyone have any other thoughts?

[Gordon_M]

I'm guessing most of those stencils are 1/2" high?

The US seems to have conquered the market for stencil cutters with Diagraph. 1" is the most common, 1/2" second, but I have seen one or two 3/4" as well. Next time I find an unattended machine at work I'll cut a stencil for my Machinist Set

[lt.luke]

So, I have a Type1/1A, "textbook correct" from the visual ID portion of the thread. The text panel says no oiler hole, which is true to my box, but I note two things which are "different" about my box. The small divider for the sockets is not present, and appears to never have been. Also, the box has one coat of silver paint, and no trace of other paint. I suppose it could have been blasted and repainted, but if so, it was a VERY long time ago based on the patina.

I discovered this single coat of paint when I started blasting it today to repaint it "proper OD." Is there any precedence for the Army to procure a silver toolbox? It is embossed with the stock number as per the Type1/1A description.

Tray and box paint and patina match.

Did we ever decide whether the Stock Number embossed boxes were/are post war?

[pjones]

Here's another box (Hamilton) to add to this thread. I don't recall seeing one with the FSN stenciled on it.





phil

[Hartofoak]

Thanks Greg for the clear analysis. I've edited my post to correct my senior moment. Phil, why haven't you shown us your very nice Hamilton box before (complete with Picasso additions!). Do you have any comments about Luke's question on the embossed Hamilton versions? In view of the many previous comments about FSN marked items and their vintage, we might argue that they are late-war or post-war. This could go for all our FSN stencilled Steven's Walden "Migit" sets as well! Now there's a box of worms ...

[Wingnutt]

...Is there any precedence for the Army to procure a silver toolbox?

Not that I know of. Remember it's a Federal Stock Number. Your box may have been procured by the Navy or the Bureau of Prisons etc with slightly different specs. The other features (no original socket tray, no oiler hole) seem to support that.

Here's another box (Hamilton) to add to this thread. I don't recall seeing one with the FSN stenciled on it.

Me neither. Is it a Hamilton with or without the embossed FSN? (I can't see well enough from the photo.) With would make the stencil redundant. Without might explain the stencil.

Thanks Greg for the clear analysis. I've edited my post to correct my senior moment.

No worries, Cliff. This start to characterizing and sequencing the stenciled boxes was a great idea.

(complete with Picasso additions!)

Haha. I was thinking Jackson Pollock myself!

[d42jeep]

I would need some very strong evidence to convince me that all of the FSN Walden boxes are postwar especially since many of the found examples have the early fewer hinge elements. I also firmly believe that Phil's "Wynmkr" set is wartime. It would be quite a stretch to characterize the contents of that set as postwar. Just my opinion.
I took some time with a hammer and dolly to straighten some damage to my new box and cleaned it with mineral spirits. The original finish is surprisingly intact and all four corner supports are in place. The next step will be to transfer the tools and tray from my GMTK into the box. I won't be using the top tray that came with the box as some previous owner welded in an additional socket area.
-Don

[lt.luke]

I won't be using the top tray that came with the box as some previous owner welded in an additional socket area.
-Don

Man you're picky! Is there any evidence that the tray and box weren't born together? I don't think you could pay me NOT to use it!

Box looks great!

[lt.luke]

Thank you Wingnutt. Maybe it'll get a coat of tacky silver when I'm done with it. One thing I forgot to ask...are you guys finding primer on your boxes? The silver box I mentioned has silver paint, 1 coat. No evidence of being primed.

[Gordon_M]

The outsides of some of my boxes have had numerous coats, but internally, and in the hidden corners, I've seen no sign of primer. I think they did just get one coat of enamel, although I have seen some of the bigger boxes with ripple finish externally and flat enamel inside.

[pjones]

Phil, why haven't you shown us your very nice Hamilton box before (complete with Picasso additions!). Do you have any comments about Luke's question on the embossed Hamilton versions? In view of the many previous comments about FSN marked items and their vintage, we might argue that they are late-war or post-war. This could go for all our FSN stencilled Steven's Walden "Migit" sets as well! Now there's a box of worms ...

Cliff, it isn't my box just one I borrowed some pictures of from the auction house recently. Like Don I am not convinced that all FSN stamped items are late or post war. Don's point about the Walden boxes is valid and remember I found a ton of those in the repacks with and without the FSN number. Also remember the FSN stamped 7 piece ignition set I have. It meets early war specs i.e. 7 wrenches.

As far as Luke's question about FSN embossed boxes. I don't know for sure but I believe both are correct for a wartime set.... But just in case I have some of each!

Greg, this box did not have the embossed FSN.

Luke, I found red primer on some of the EJ McALEER boxes I restored.

Don, looks great. Could that extra weld socket holder be woven into a tale of a savvy mechanic who added some field mods?

phil

[Wingnutt]

I would need some very strong evidence to convince me that all of the FSN Walden boxes are postwar especially since many of the found examples have the early fewer hinge elements.

Like Don I am not convinced that all FSN stamped items are late or post war. Don's point about the Walden boxes is valid and remember I found a ton of those in the repacks with and without the FSN number. Also remember the FSN stamped 7 piece ignition set I have. It meets early war specs i.e. 7 wrenches...[ ]... As far as Luke's question about FSN embossed boxes. I don't know for sure but I believe both are correct for a wartime set.

I think the provenance that I researched for hell-fire’s SW midget box – which was FSN-stamped and marked with a verified WWII veteran’s name, erased all doubt about the vintage of the FSN-stamped SW midget boxes. And all the FSN-stamped ignition wrenches scream wartime. But I didn't think Cliff was talking about the subject of FSN-marked tools, in general, just toolboxes, and, since Hamilton is the only supplier who made a 41-B-1840 with the FSN embossed, just Hamilton toolboxes - and that particular question is far from answered. (EDIT: I see that Cliff did bring the other items into the subject. Sorry. I think the subject needs to be looked at item by item, and I will confine my comments to the Hamilton toolboxes.)

Because Hamilton also made 41-B-1840 spec-perfect toolboxes without the embossed FSN, it does raise the question of date and sequence. If we had no evidence to go by other than the boxes themselves, we could say that both have equal merit. But that is not the case.

My Hamilton box with indisputable wartime markings does NOT have the embossed FSN. Now consider that along with the fact that the box illustrated in RAPD 50223 in the October 1942 SNL N-19 is clearly a Hamilton without an FSN embossed. Those two data points – historical document, and matching historical artifact - don't prove that embossed FSN Hamilton boxes are not wartime, but it sure does give more credence to Hamilton boxes without the FSN embossed. Those two data points and the fact that no other verified supplier (Union, McAleer) stamped or otherwise marked their boxes with an FSN, does give plenty of reason to question whether Hamilton embossing their boxes was a late war or post-war convention.

Back on my stencil format sequencing subject, I remembered that Steve has a box with an 11-digit (post-war) FSN, and it was stenciled in the nomenclature style (i.e., 1 EA., TOOL-SET, GENERAL MECH.). See here: viewtopic.php?p=1592204#p1592204

I also firmly believe that Phil's "Wynmkr" set is wartime. It would be quite a stretch to characterize the contents of that set as postwar.

Given the broad implication of the noun you chose (“contents”), I agree. I don’t think it’s even close to a stretch to question some of the contents as post-war, however, and by implication, the vintage of the entire set. I was on record saying that some of the contents are very questionable as wartime when Randy first posted it, and again when I helped him inventory and identify the set from additional photographs not posted here in preparation for his sale, and in his sales thread here: viewtopic.php?p=1358807#p1358807, and I still stand by that now – even though I have verified some of the makers (e.g., UNBRAKO – Standard Pressed Steel brand, and UNITED, very recently!) since then.

The Gov. Stock # stamped IRWIN is not wartime and the 12” steel rule defies GMTK specifications, and some of the other brands have yet to be verified. Those brands could end up being verified, and, as I have always said, the post-war items could’ve easily been added after the war. But that does raise the question of the originality of the other items to each other and the originality of the items to the box. The tools in and of themselves do not verify the box as wartime, in my opinion.

There’s one other significant point I have always made about the Wynmakr box that doesn’t seem to get much traction. The white stenciling on the end “MVM 46” was clearly NOT made at the same time as the yellow stenciling (“GENERAL MECHANIC SET”). Because it’s white, because it’s an older style of stenciling, and because it’s “MVM” (which very likely stands for Motor Vehicle Mechanic, which preceded General Mechanic), I think it’s clearly older than the yellow stenciling. That makes the box older than the yellow stenciling. Which means that the yellow stenciling was added at some time later than the “MVM 46” (which I believe is an individual mechanic’s number). Whether that was later in the war, or this box was run back through the system after the war, we do not know. But it was clearly later.

Now look at Don's end marking ("114"). It appears to have been applied concurrently to the "GENERAL MECHANIC SET" marking.

Which brings me back to my position: the yellow stenciled boxes are later than the others. Which is all I have said. I’m not saying they’re post-war. And I would certainly put a GMTK inside one in an excited and prideful hurry!

I won't be using the top tray that came with the box as some previous owner welded in an additional socket area.

Could that extra weld socket holder be woven into a tale of a savvy mechanic who added some field mods?

What Phil said! Does the weld look 70+ years old? If not, I'd try to remove it.

[d42jeep]

The modification looks as if it was intended to add 3/8" drive sockets to the tray and the marks left on the bottom seem to verify that. Since all of my McAleer trays are virtually identical I haven't had any qualms about moving them from box to box in the past.
-Don