Indian 741 & 841 service wrench

[Wingnutt]

I recently did some horse-trading with another tool collector, not a G503 guy, who recently found this odd S-shaped DBE wrench with a “41-W-2068” on the shank.



The ends are both 1/2” milled openings, both set at 15* angles on the shank, like a straight handled DBE wrench.



If you’re wondering why it has the same size on both ends, it’s to take advantage of the 15* angle and both curves, left or right, to avoid both a handle/hand obstruction (with the elevated shank) and a proximity obstruction (with the curves in the shank) when loosening or tightening a 1/2” fastener.




The wrench has no brand, size, or any other markings of any kind. I couldn’t find it any of my references, but thanks to Phil Jones, it was found in his October 1942 SNL N-19.

Believe it or not, it was part of 41-T-3367-23 | TOOL-SET, Special, Harley-Davidson Shaft Drive!

That wasn’t an on-board kit, but a 2nd Echelon Special tool-set for servicing the XA, not the WLA, which was of course chain drive. Since only 1,000 XA’s were made, all in late 1941 and 1942, I am guessing that’s the reason why there is no reference to this tool in any of the mid- to late-war Ordnance Supply Catalogs. I am supposing that the special rear echelon service tool-set for the XA was dropped when the XA was.

I am going to post it on the motorcycles forum and see if anyone knows anything more about it.

[henry501]

Greg,

Nice find. The Harley XA and the Indian 841 were indeed special bikes being that they were both shaft drive and were requested by the US military for desert warfare. Both took their inspiration from the BMW R71. After the initial production run (1,000 each) both were ultimately discontinued in favor of... The Jeep! Good trade. Being an Indian lover I'd love to get my hands on an 841, if I could afford it!

Thank you,
Henry

[mudbox]

Here's the interesting part for me...

Since only 1,000 XA’s were made, all in late 1941 and 1942, I am guessing that’s the reason why there is no reference to this tool in any of the mid- to late-war Ordnance Supply Catalogs.

Because, as a group, we've gone back and forth about the FSN on tools as being wartime/post war/ or somewhere in between, but usually netting out as most likely late in the war effort. But here we have an example of a wrench that was almost certainly produced early in the war and then made obsolete by the end of the war.

So, does this change anyones thoughts/feelings about FSN marked tools as plausible from the onset of the war? I think I'm leaning more and more in that direction...

Comments?

-Jason

edit: to add, that looks like a Williams made wrench to me.

[Wingnutt]

Comments?
edit: to add, that looks like a Williams made wrench to me.

Thanks for your thoughts on the mfgr, Jason. I hadn't done any comparisons yet. I will start with Williams.

As for the FSN, it doesn't really push me off my position.

I think they're plausible throughout - but I just don't think they were very prevalent (commonly applied to many tools by many mfgrs or agencies, as a requirement), and most do seem to be a late or even a post-war thing.

I don't think it's wise to date everything to late- or post-war based exclusively on the presence of an FSN, as a rule of thumb. And this HD XA wrench seems to prove that.

But context works both ways. In this case, it seems to show that it was almost certainly stamped early war. In others, the opposite is true.

For example, I date the Arcturus wrenches with the forged-in FSN's to most likely late war because they only had late war contracts (late 44, and 45). I date Hamilton boxes with FSN's to most likely late war because there is a figure of a Hamilton box without an FSN in the 1942 N-19, implying a sequence. And of course I date IRWIN 41-S-1076 screwdrivers to post-war (1950, to be more precise) because of the irrefutable M38 documentation.

I think they all need to be treated on a case-by-case basis, and - this is just as important, they can't be used for or against each other. In other words, this seemingly early war 41-W-2068 XA wrench doesn't undermine the logic of the 41-S-1076 screwdriver, and the 41-S-1076 screwdriver doesn't undermine the logic of the XA's production history and the wrench's apparent obsolescence.

I think we tend to want to make easy to follow principles, but the FSN defies it.

EDIT: Is this the strongest argument for an early war FSN? Or do we have an other example? I am trying to think of a good one. Someone really should gather all the FSN examples into a single thread. I know I can't remember them all. Or has someone already done that? Trying to draw conclusions without a running list is hard.

[d42jeep]

One example that immediately comes to mind is the FSN marked Walden boxes with the different amount of hinge elements. My MVMTS has what I see as an early FSN marked box with the 5 hinge elements and different paint than we often see on the later boxes with the 6 elements, such as the FSN marked box in my GMTK. I know that there isn't necessarily any documentation to prove the vintage of the boxes, but it makes sense to me.
-Don

[lt.luke]

The Gregsonian now has a growing wing of rare tools for rare motorcycles!

[Wingnutt]

I know that there isn't necessarily any documentation to prove the vintage of the boxes, but it makes sense to me.

Me too, Don. It implies a sequence, since it's unlikely that Walden's supplier was making both kinds of boxes (5-hinge, dark OD; 6-hinge, green) in parallel. Whether the green boxes are late war or post-war is a little less certain than the OD earlier box being wartime, but it does show the FNS being applied earlier.

The Gregsonian now has a growing wing of rare tools for rare motorcycles!

Perhaps not so rare after all!

All,

The 41-W-2086 S-shaped DBE wrench was issued to both chain- and shaft-drive Indian motorcycle service tool-sets (2nd, 3rd, and 4th echelon), and I am guessing (pending confirmation), based on that, that it was also issued to the chain-drive HD WLA. That changes the entire analysis for why the wrench is not listed in the later 1945 ORD 5. Apologies for jumping the gun on incomplete information. I'll update this thread title and my initial post once I get confirmation.

[henry501]

Greg,

No need to be hard on yourself about the analysis. Being and "Indian guy", a while back, I asked Phil for a copy of the special tool set for Indian Chain drive motorcycles from the 1942 SNL N-19 (see this thread)
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=280644

However, I never even thought to double check it for the presence of the 41-W-2068 so I guess I'm not such and Indian guy after all or at least one who is paying attention to the possibilities of a tool for the XA also being used on Indians even though, realistically there should be no reason that some tools were common across different models let alone different brands.

I'm going to have to pay much more attention to the "S" shaped wrenches when I go to flea markets.

Thank you,
Henry

[Wingnutt]

All,

As you can see for yourself based on the thread name change, I really hosed this up!

To un-hose it...

Note that the 41-W-2068 is not in either the Harley-Davidson WLA or XA service tool-sets!

I know what you're thinking. How the hell could I get it so backasswards!?

I will tell you how.

Phil correctly reported to me that it was in the Indian shaft drive service tool-set. I don't know how I juxtaposed that with the H-D shaft drive tool-set, but I did. When I got the Indian SNL's from Phil, and I noticed that the wrench was also in the Indian tool-sets, I still didn't realize my mistake, at that time theorizing above that it must have been a wrench common to ALL the H-D and Indian WWII bikes. When I got the H-D SNL's from Phil, you can imagine my surprise not finding the wrench in either tool-set! Only then did I realize my major malfunction, going back to Phil's original email to me.

Without any more futzing around, take note that the 41-W-2068 is in fact an Indian only service tool, found in both the 41-T-3767-30 (chain drive) and 41-T-3767-45 (shaft drive) tool-sets.

Since it was also used in the chain drive set, and the chain drive bike was not cancelled after a limited production run, that seriously skews everything we had thought about the FSN on it.

[Wingnutt]

In case anyone else is interested, I got a reply on the MC board on the wrench's use. Post is here.