1944 Hotchkiss

1956-1966, Hotchkiss, Quarter-ton jeep® series, Wanted, For Sale, and Knowledge Base
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Ianc484
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1944 Hotchkiss

Post by Ianc484 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:00 pm

Hello, I am new to the G503.com forum and to Jeep Willys for that matter. I have recently inherited, what is believed to be, a 1944 Willys MB refurbished by Hotchkiss in 1960. From the research I have done it is a Willys frame and an ACM composite body. I have found many numbers throughout the Jeep, many located on the passenger side frame rail. I have found a website dedicated to Hotchkiss Jeeps, (m201.com) however, I can't seem to find matching numbers to date the Jeep. If anyone can help me better understand what I have I would appreciate it. Thanks again. Image
Glove box data plate (left)
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Glove box data plate (middle)
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Glove box data plate (right)
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Front passenger side frame rail (top)
Number = 05585
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Front passenger side frame rail (outside)
Number = 2152
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Rear passenger side frame rail (outside)
Number = 027529
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Rear passenger side frame rail (inside)
Number = MALT 16095
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Motor stamp
Number = 285575
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Motor tag
Number = 285575
Date = 19/9/63
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Driver side toeboard gusset
Number = 47392
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Willys toolbox buttons with Ford lids
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Image
Image
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Ford style toeboard gussets
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Willys front crossmember
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Ben Dover
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Re: 1944 Hotchkiss

Post by Ben Dover » Mon Mar 03, 2014 6:09 am

It sure has a lot of W.O.F. influence, and note the French Army Wiper Motors.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
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mr rusty
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Re: 1944 Hotchkiss

Post by mr rusty » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:18 pm

It seams you have jeep salad - made/refurbed at La Maltournee. You have a date of 19-4-60 with matching numbers - data plate AND chassis 03585! The tub appears to be a ACM2 correct wartime body. The chassis appears to be an original wartime Willys (midland) frame - there is no reinforing between front chassis gussets and front cross member. There may be items of wartime manufacture - seats, hood, wings (Fenders)
Correctly dating the chassis will be difficult without the riveted on original plate but by looking at certain areas of the frame it can be determined wether early - mid - late production.

Good luck .. Pete

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Benleroy
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Re: 1944 Hotchkiss

Post by Benleroy » Fri Apr 04, 2014 4:59 am

I'm not sure about the chassis. You must check the cross over tube.

For me, you have a hotchkiss 6V frame.

http://perso.latribu.be/Benleroy/Jeep/A ... _M201.html

MB:
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M201:
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lucakiki
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Re: 1944 Hotchkiss

Post by lucakiki » Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:52 am

I came on this thread by chance, quite late.

Strictly speaking, you have a VLTT.
In the salads that came out from la Maltournèe it is more often than not impossible to reconstruct the whole story.
Maltournèe and WOF are two quite different things, and one should never forget this.

You can pretend that the frame is an original Willys, or you accept the fact it is a French made one.

The tub is definitily ACM , and it might, just might, come from a GPW, or the lids might have been taken from one.

The windshield bear the upper wiper contacts, but none of them can be seen on the dash.

I think it is one of many French Army surplused VLTT that somewhen in its life after surplusing has been Americanized : I would never put the dreaded Notchkiss label on it, because the notch and whole tub are pure American.

It much depends on what you want to do with it: as a parade jeep, it is ok the way it is.

If you want to restore it it much depends, again, on what you want to reconstruct: American, or French VLTT ?
Neither will be cheap, but the French route will definitely much less costly.
I am biased, because I do not like French jeeps, but that is just me.
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

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Re: 1944 Hotchkiss

Post by Ben Dover » Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:36 pm

There is no reason to be shy about owning a Hotchkiss Jeep or an MB/GPW that has been depot overhauled with a mix of USA, and Hotchkiss parts. Hotchkiss uses many parts licensed by Jeep. They are very close to original Jeep in appearance and can be restored to be nearly identical to WWII Jeep appearance. The French body is 99.99% dimensionally identical to Willys, they share most of the same holes and threads, and are superior in quality and fit to the repros. The Hotchkiss body readily accepts all bolted on Willys parts.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
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COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

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lucakiki
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Re: 1944 Hotchkiss

Post by lucakiki » Tue Apr 22, 2014 4:22 am

It is not a matter of being shy:it is a matter of using correct terminology.

Once an owner realizes that his "jeep salad" is actually a Maltournèe VLTT, all he can do is to decide on his own what he actually wants to do.
Should he decide to keep it in French livery, rather than turn it back into the US made jeep it once was, the approach is obviously different,less costly, and easier than if one wants, just as legitimately, turn it back in to what it might have been when still in the U.S. ARMY.

All he can work from is the ACM number, and the identity given to the reconstructed vehicle will forcedly be fictional, although plausible.

Only the owner can decide what he wants to do.

Obviously there is NOT such a thing as a 1944 Hotchkiss.
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

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Re: 1944 Hotchkiss

Post by TopKick » Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:41 am

It's a nice Jeep the way it is. Drive it and enjoy it! 8)
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"Until it's melted down and turned into something else, or blown to Smitherines, it's restorable"!

Ben Dover
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Re: 1944 Hotchkiss

Post by Ben Dover » Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:22 am

There will always be critics, some will cheer you on, some will tear your project apart. The old saying "People who live in glass houses should not throw stones" is often so true when the negatives are coming your way.
you have an nice Jeep with genuine WWII blood in its veins, it is a real survivor.
A few gauges, some Corcoran Brown/Grotelite Reflectors, a little WWII detail on the dashboard, and a US type Spare Tire Clamp, and your Jeep will be standing tall just like the GI's that won the war.
Last edited by Ben Dover on Sat May 03, 2014 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

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lucakiki
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Re: 1944 Hotchkiss

Post by lucakiki » Fri May 02, 2014 9:34 am

ianc484,

if you want to learn more about what a La Maltournèe jeep is, this is a nice site where you can look

http://www.hotchkissm201.fr/

Bear in mind that french army jeeps might go through a rebuild more than once.

The important thing to know, is what you want to do with your inherited jeep.

To me, it looks like someone in the past wanted to turn it into an American jeep, and marked it accordingly.

Now, if you want to preserve its history as a french army jeep, then you have to mark it as a french army jeep: not sure of how much liked that is in U.S. parades.

If on the contrary you want to turn it back into an American jeep (not at all impossible, and quite legitimate since the tub at least is pure American. it is just a matter of patiently replacing what was added with originasl parts. To begin with, remove the ugly remains od the wiper contacts on the left of the windshield, definitely french, and also useless since your wiper motor is not electric anyway.

Of course you can also keep it as is, but since you asked I thought to tell you the things as they actually are.
Not criticizing at all, just telling things in an unbiased way.
I have most likely seen, touched, assessed more French jeep jeeps than many american experts have, so I know what I am talking about.
Whatever you decide, enjoy your jeep, and most of all do with it what suits you more.
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

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Re: 1944 Hotchkiss

Post by Ben Dover » Fri May 02, 2014 3:57 pm

Why be so critical when there are so many MB'/GPW's that are entered in national judging with MD Juan sheet metal and other repro parts?
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

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lucakiki
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Re: 1944 Hotchkiss

Post by lucakiki » Sat May 03, 2014 5:14 am

What the [ §ç#€ ] are you talking about ?

No one here is criticizing anything.

The original poster has a jeep which has OBVIOUSLY gone through one or more rebuilds at la Maltournèe.
He posted all the interesting and meaningful French markings to be found all around the jeep.

The tub is PATENTLY an Original american made ACM tub, with an ACM number that enabled the o.p. to perfectly date it.
The fact that the tub is ACM saves this jeep from the " notchkiss" label usually sticked to americanized Armèe jeeps.

I gave the O.P. a link to a site where ( given he had not already been there) he can learn a lot about the La Maltournèe jeeps.

I told him that over keeping the jeep the way it is, if he wants to do something with it he has also other options, which is undeniable.

If he wants to keep the " story" of the vehicle in French service, he should paint it and mark it accordingly, which is not necessarily what he likes to do, or want to do. He is quite obviously the only one entitled to decide.

He might just as well decide that he wants an American jeep, and quite frankly it might be a very wise decision: a couple of gauges, the speedometer, and he would already improve quite a bit. Replace those reflectors, and another easy improvement could be made. Et cetera et cetera.

Who cares about what Hotchkiss bodies are: he already has a very nice American tub, so there is no need to repeat the usual sermon about Hotchkiss.
The same can be said about sneaking in MD Juan Bodies in the discussion: it is just a waste od bandwidth, since , once again, the original poster has an original tub.

However it might be woth reminding anyone concerned that entering a French bodied jeep for judging requires a huge amount of reworking, of which our resident know it all might not be completely aware, if the goal is to make it undetedectable from an original us made tub. Not any easier than a Repro tub.

But let us not waste time: we know tha6t the original poster has not a French tub, nor a repro tub : that is why, should he so decide, making a very good US Army motor pool jeep out of his vehicle is not only doable, but not even difficult to boot.

Should he need further advice on that route, all he needs to do is ask.
maltournèe.jpg
maltournèe.jpg (200.98 KiB) Viewed 3049 times
Edited, to add a picture showing the little improvements possible.
Last edited by lucakiki on Sat May 03, 2014 5:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

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Ben Dover
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Re: 1944 Hotchkiss

Post by Ben Dover » Sat May 03, 2014 5:23 am

lucakiki wrote:I came on this thread by chance, quite late.

Strictly speaking, you have a VLTT.
In the salads that came out from la Maltournèe it is more often than not impossible to reconstruct the whole story.
Maltournèe and WOF are two quite different things, and one should never forget this.

You can pretend that the frame is an original Willys, or you accept the fact it is a French made one.

I am biased, because I do not like French jeeps, but that is just me.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________________
Not "critical"?
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

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lucakiki
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Re: 1944 (??) Hotchkiss...

Post by lucakiki » Sat May 03, 2014 5:56 am

lucakiki wrote:I came on this thread by chance, quite late.

Strictly speaking, you have a VLTT.
In the salads that came out from la Maltournèe it is more often than not impossible to reconstruct the whole story.
Maltournèe and WOF are two quite different things, and one should never forget this.

You can pretend that the frame is an original Willys, or you accept the fact it is a French made one.

I am biased, because I do not like French jeeps, but that is just me.
bend over wrote:Not "critical"?
Not at all! Rather it can be defined Factual: while such a thing as a 1944 Hotchkiss does not exist, obviously, one thing are the jeeps made by Hotchkiss, and one thing are the VLTT jeeps that came out ( mainly) of the La Maltournèe rebuilding programs.


These are facts, undeniable.
If you cannot prove me wrong, why don't you just shut up?

Of course, in typical Joelish style, you have now EDITED a previous post of yours , adding suggestions that were not there before. How pathetic! :roll:
Adding what was not there, after reading my post : ridiculous, to say the least, as all silly peacocks are.

Here is what is printed in my post:

a couple of gauges, the speedometer, and he would already improve quite a bit. Replace those reflectors, and another easy improvement could be made. Et cetera et cetera.

Some Twenty minutes later, here is how our know-it-all parrot edited today his previous post from Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:22 pm :

A few gauges, some Corcoran Brown/Grotelite Reflectors, a little WWII detail on the dashboard, and a US type Spare Tire Clamp, and your Jeep will be standing tall just like the GI's that won the war.
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

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Paul Randazzo
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Re: 1944 Hotchkiss

Post by Paul Randazzo » Mon Mar 16, 2015 1:36 pm

I hadn't been on this site in a while but I noticed your Hotchkiss. It's very nice, I have one myself only mine is all Hotchkiss built in 1960 and it's finished with USMC markings soon to be changed over to U.S. Army. If you're in need of parts let me know.
Best regards
1060 Hotchkiss M201
Fleet Automotive Technician ret
Chief Vehicle Maint Mech Museum of American Armor Old Bethpage NY present

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