my 201 Hotchkiss

1956-1966, Hotchkiss, Quarter-ton jeep® series, Wanted, For Sale, and Knowledge Base
raptor
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Re: my 201 Hotchkiss

Post by raptor » Sun Oct 30, 2011 12:35 pm

Hi guys,

I was reading these posts again and again .
And I was thinking (yes I can :D )

If I was restoring (and I am)
Would I use factory fresh parts from France for my 1942 MB then the answer is NO.
I would use old parts and refurbish them .
I would use French parts if there wasn't anything around on the entire planet.

French parts aren't WWII parts (and will never be WWII parts)
They look the same (but there are always differences)

I DID NOT SAY THAT A M201 IS LESSER !
They are in fact better .

But then again the aren't from the 1940's.

So wenn Ben wrote this story :
Ben Dover wrote:Thank God the French Military was serious about perpetuating the combat proven MB for another half century, it gave the serious Jeep collectors factory fresh parts for years and is providing a source of restorable Jeeps for many happy collectors.
I think that the words serious jeep collectors isn't right !

That doesn't mean that Luca is right .

I have had a M201 body and I have seen a lot of MD JUAN body's .

French body's are a lot better and I would love to take parts from those body's to restore a WWII Bodytub. :evil:
For the rest I think Luca is right.

My 50 cents .

René Boers
WILLYS MB S/N 152669 June 19 1942 with ACM1 TUB S/N 54083 with WILLYS script back panel (Restored October 2012)
FORD GPW S/N 259933 May 10 1945 (frame section and dataplate) SOLD


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Re: my 201 Hotchkiss

Post by Joe Gopan » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:18 am

Some WOF parts are USA manufactured and packed in WOF wrappers. With all of the Jeeps restored with MD Juan bodies, and repro Jeep parts that are not OEM MB/GPW, there is no reason to be critical of proud restorers using W.O.F. parts.
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raptor
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Re: my 201 Hotchkiss

Post by raptor » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:52 pm

Hello Ben Dover,

Did I say that Original parts in WOF paper wasn't original ?

I said that WOF parts aren't the same as originals.

And that I would not use them and SERIOUS collectors probably would not use them also.

If you want an original jeep then this is not done .

And by the way .
I would love to buy a real M201 (in french colours).

But with a Willys MB transfercase(3 forward 1 back) because french transfercases are going 1 forward and 3 back.
Now i am taking cover behind my couch :evil:
WILLYS MB S/N 152669 June 19 1942 with ACM1 TUB S/N 54083 with WILLYS script back panel (Restored October 2012)
FORD GPW S/N 259933 May 10 1945 (frame section and dataplate) SOLD

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Re: my 201 Hotchkiss

Post by Joe Gopan » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:01 pm

The M-201 upgraded to a larger intermediate shaft in the transfer, and my statement that NOS made in USA MB parts in W.O.F. marked wrappers parts existed. After 6+ decades involvement in NOS Jeep parts one experiences a lot. I used to buy direct from S.O.F.I.A. (W.O.F.) during the 70's
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

raptor
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Re: my 201 Hotchkiss

Post by raptor » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:13 pm

Dear Ben,

I didn't say that i isn't possible about NOS parts from the USA in WOF marked paper.

I said that real french m201 parts are not original wwii parts.

I know that the french used US original parts ,but the parts they made are different and a lot of them are marked with WOF.

What i did say is that REAL french parts should not be on a WWII jeep.

That's what I said and i believe that is what Luca is trying to say.

Oh and about a NOS WOF body there was one on http://www.kapaza.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for 2750 euro. (so they still excist )

Should i take cover behind the couch again ? :D
WILLYS MB S/N 152669 June 19 1942 with ACM1 TUB S/N 54083 with WILLYS script back panel (Restored October 2012)
FORD GPW S/N 259933 May 10 1945 (frame section and dataplate) SOLD

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Re: my 201 Hotchkiss

Post by Bill M » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:15 pm

We are the fortunate benefactors of excellent French mechanical parts that are of equivalent or better quality than the originals.
Internal mechanical parts have the benefit of not being seen and add to the resources available to restorers instead of waiting years for an original NOS part to surface. While the French tubs and body parts may have their differences they are however an excellent substitute for rusted out originals.
My own GPW has a Hotchkiss syncroniser assembly tres bien :wink:
Bonne journée
Bill.
Member of G503 since 1999


GPW-178721 Under restoration.

raptor
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Re: my 201 Hotchkiss

Post by raptor » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:28 pm

Bon pour vous Bill, Juste dommage qu'ils sont vendus comme de véritables.
Et tandis qu'ils ont leurs propres âmes.

salutations vert René :shock:
WILLYS MB S/N 152669 June 19 1942 with ACM1 TUB S/N 54083 with WILLYS script back panel (Restored October 2012)
FORD GPW S/N 259933 May 10 1945 (frame section and dataplate) SOLD

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Re: my 201 Hotchkiss

Post by Bill M » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:39 pm

Bonjour René,
merci pour votre point de vue, je comprends complètement. D'origine est toujours la meilleure.
Excusez mon français, j'ai un peu d'aide pour traduire :wink:
bonne journée
Bill.
Member of G503 since 1999


GPW-178721 Under restoration.

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lucakiki
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Re: my 201 Hotchkiss

Post by lucakiki » Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:24 pm

Strange thread, although in a way predictable.
The original poster is well aware of what he has done, and quite clearly declares it.
Another poster, immediately chimes in in defense of the Hotchkiss as a perfect representation of the vehicle that won the war etc. etc..
Sure, but having a veteran as guest at a parade is not the same as having his grandson wearing a WWII uniform.
Nothing new, as anyone checking the reverend's previous posts can read.
S.O.S., short for...Save Our Souls.

Then we have someone else bragging about six decades plus experience in jeep surplus dealing.
Great! Since he was born at the beginning of the war,he must have been younger than ten years, six decades ago.

Let us now consider the idea of using parts from Hotchkiss tubs to restore original WWII jeeps.
Why not? They are just parts, and they fit.
Then let us consider the idea of using a whole French tub: that is not restoring,is recreating a jeep. A clone, if you wish.
Not any easier than using one of those Philipine tubs on which someone kept spitting venom.

So, what about calling things by their own name?
The originator of this thread called things by their own name,but after that .... :roll:
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

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Re: my 201 Hotchkiss

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Nov 02, 2011 5:06 pm

No Hotckiss post would be complete without Luca and all of his negatives about anything W.O.F. I installed genuine W.O.F. Rzeppa Axle Shafts in my MB. (They are not supposed to exist).
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

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lucakiki
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Save our souls and deja vu.

Post by lucakiki » Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:52 am

It much depends on how you look at it.

The vast majority of mechanical components , but by no mean all of them, do interchange with original U.S. made parts: why not take advantage of this, when possible or useful or unavoidable?

Body portions or some bolt on ancillaries do interchange : great opportunity.

A complete tub from Hotchkiss requires extensive work to be turned almost undetectably into an American Tub clone.
Any one claiming otherwise is plain misrepresenting a well nown fact, and this is a political way to define him a liar...
You would anyway need original parts from an original donor A.C.M. tub in order to complete your Notchkiss clone.

Turning an M201 into an American lookalike is legitimate, as long as you do not try to pass it off as an original.
By turning an M 201 into a Willys MB lookalike you are not , anyway, restoring a jeep.
You are not restoring a Willys, as it had never been a Willys to begin with, and you are not restoring an M201, because any M201 never started its life as an MB.
There is nothing negative in stating this absolute truth, and actually there would not even be any need to do it, if not for some repeated attempts to confuse the concepts,always popping up from the same "people".
The originator of this thread, Benny, very honestly shared the facts about his vehicle, and his sincerity deserves unconditioned praise.
However, jumping on the merry go round just to distort the truth or use the most incredible excuses to present Notchkisses as something they are not, is pathetic.
But with a Willys MB transfercase(3 forward 1 back) because french transfercases are going 1 forward and 3 back.
I have read this supposedly witty wisecrack dozen of times, whether referred to French, German , italian, German vehicles: let me tell the guy who repeated it once more that not only it is a far from new wisecrack, but also that I consider it pretty stupid and coward one.
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

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Joe Gopan
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Re: Save our souls and deja vu.

Post by Joe Gopan » Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:40 am

[quote="lucakiki"]It much depends on how you look at it.

The vast majority of mechanical components , but by no mean all of them, do interchange with original U.S. made parts: why not take advantage of this, when possible or useful or unavoidable?

Body [u]portions[/u] or some bolt on ancillaries do interchange : great opportunity.

A complete tub from Hotchkiss requires extensive work to be turned almost undetectably into an American Tub clone.
Any one claiming otherwise is plain misrepresenting a well nown fact, and this is a political way to define him a liar...
You would anyway need original parts from an original donor A.C.M. tub in order to complete your Notchkiss clone.

Turning an M201 into an American lookalike is legitimate, as long as you do not try to pass it off as an original.
By turning an M 201 into a Willys MB lookalike you are not , anyway, [u][b]restoring [/b][/u]a jeep.
You are not restoring a Willys, as it had never been a Willys to begin with, and you are not restoring an M201, because any M201 never started its life as an MB.
There is nothing negative in stating this absolute truth, and actually there would not even be any need to do it, if not for some repeated attempts to confuse the concepts,always popping up from the same "people".
The originator of this thread, Benny, very honestly shared the facts about his vehicle, and his sincerity deserves unconditioned praise.
However, jumping on the merry go round just to distort the truth or use the most incredible excuses to present Notchkisses as something they are not, is pathetic.

[quote][i]But with a Willys MB transfercase(3 forward 1 back) because french transfercases are going 1 forward and 3 back[/i].[/quote]
I have read this supposedly witty wisecrack dozen of times, whether referred to French, German , italian, German vehicles: let me tell the guy who repeated it once more that not only it is a far from new wisecrack, but also that I consider it pretty stupid and coward one.[/quote]
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Nothing Negative :wink:
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

raptor
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Re: Save our souls and deja vu.

Post by raptor » Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:22 am

lucakiki wrote:I have read this supposedly witty wisecrack dozen of times, whether referred to French, German , italian, German vehicles: let me tell the guy who repeated it once more that not only it is a far from new wisecrack, but also that I consider it pretty stupid and coward one.

Is this because you are Italian ???
I always believed that Italians had humor !

For a guy that has 13500 posts you are unbelievable calling me a wisecrack and a coward.
For starters i am not. (i was making a joke)
But it is cowerdless to write that about someone you don't know

That is even low for someone like you :roll:

Hope we will meet in the near future and disscus this matter between the both of us.

Kind regards René
WILLYS MB S/N 152669 June 19 1942 with ACM1 TUB S/N 54083 with WILLYS script back panel (Restored October 2012)
FORD GPW S/N 259933 May 10 1945 (frame section and dataplate) SOLD

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lucakiki
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Re: Save our souls and deja vu.

Post by lucakiki » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:33 am

raptor wrote:
lucakiki wrote:I have read this supposedly witty wisecrack dozen of times, whether referred to French, German , italian, German vehicles: let me tell the guy who repeated it once more that not only it is a far from new wisecrack, but also that I consider it pretty stupid and coward one.

Is this because you are Italian ???
I always believed that Italians had humor !

For a guy that has 13500 posts you are unbelievable calling me a wisecrack [sic!] and a coward.
For starters i am not. (i was making a joke)
But it is cowerdless to write that about someone you don't know

That is even low for someone like you :roll:

Hope we will meet in the near future and disscus this matter between the both of us.

Kind regards René

You got it wrong, man! May be it is because of your grab of the language.
I have not called you a coward.
It is the wisecrack about some army having vehicles with one forward and three reverse gears that is old, freaking old, and coward.
I have read it directed to whichever army was perceived as foe, including UK, Italy, France ...
I do consider such a wisecrack stupid and coward: no army can be labeled as coward as the wisecrack, supposedly wittingly, implies.
Be it the French, the Italian or the British army.
Got it now,kid?

I am proudly Italian, with a quarter of my blood being Belgian, and for sure I do not lack of sense of humour, when humour is there to be detected.
That old wisecrack, used and abused, has no humour at all.

Just for your information and future use, why don't you check this:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/wisecrack" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Luca

WillysMB#344142 6-19-44 Navy N.S.Blue Grey
45 Bantam T-3 #57248 1-10-45
42 Willys MB-T #13560 11-42
43 Willys MB-T # 25417 4-43
Way too many WWII military tools,hopefully thinning down,and way too many posts...

__________________________________________
_____________________________________________
__________________________________________

raptor
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Re: my 201 Hotchkiss

Post by raptor » Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:11 am

Ahhh
I got it now !! :D

My bad :oops:

and I don't have a problem with French Army Vehicles .
And German and Italian Army Vehicles neither (If i could buy one i would ,but those prices :( )

And about the army's of all those country's (those where other times)

Kind regards René
WILLYS MB S/N 152669 June 19 1942 with ACM1 TUB S/N 54083 with WILLYS script back panel (Restored October 2012)
FORD GPW S/N 259933 May 10 1945 (frame section and dataplate) SOLD


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