MB late war 2 inch trumpet Auto Lite horn

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
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Fred Coldwell
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Late War 2" trumpet Sparton Horn A-17715?

Post by Fred Coldwell » Mon Apr 11, 2005 6:17 pm

Edited 4-12-05: I now think these are post-war Schwarze short trumpet horns for the reasons cited in a later post below. I'm leaving my original post in tact so G-503er's can see the discovery process that lead to my revised conclusion. Fred C.

Here are photos of what I think might be the late war [July & August 1945] 2" trumpet Sparton horn #B-10539, an optional horn under W/O part # A-17715 to the Auto Lite horn HA-033, pictured above. The horn seen here has no markings to identify it. But its rear cover has three evenly spaced ribs and is riveted to the front cover, making disassembly difficult. Is this 3 rib design a Sparton feature, perhaps found on the long trumpet WW II Sparton? Is the profile of the front cover a Sparton design? Are electrical terminals on opposite sides of the rear cover a Sparton feature? Any and all comments and observations appreciated!

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Last edited by Fred Coldwell on Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Happy Jeep Trails,

Fred Coldwell
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Bob N
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Post by Bob N » Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:06 am

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The black horn is a Sparks-Withington Company and and the red primered horn is Schwarze Electric Company horn.


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These pictures were sent to me by Richard Grace back in 2003. Larger versions are here - http://www.42fordgpw.com/horn.html

It would appear that the "three rib design" is not exclusive of Sparton. As you can see neither horn is revited.

Is the only evidence of use, the 1951 manual? No earlier indication of use as a service part? When you say "service part" do you mean "replacement part"? Fred the PRFs you were citing or quoting from, is this the BOM listing?
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Fred Coldwell
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Mine are Schwarze horns, not Sparton

Post by Fred Coldwell » Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:26 am

Bob N: Thank you for posting Richard Grace's informative horn photos. From them I have determined my horns pictured above are Schwarze Electric Company horns, not Sparton horns as I first guessed. The key identifier is the wider third rib on the back with the machine screw in it, a feature that seems to appear only on Schwarze horns. I'll edit my first photo post to better ID these stubby horns. The riveting on the stubby horns suggests "disposable" instead of "rebuildable", which makes me think the horns are later than the other horns whose halves were screwed together for easier disassembly and repair, back in the time when people did such things.

The documentary evidence of late WW II factory use of the elusive Auto Lite or Sparton stubby horn is the listing of W/O part # A-17715 on a 7/9/45 dated factory PRF form. Horn A-17715 does not appear in either the October 1949 ORD 9 SNL G-503 (which on page 134 states horn WO A-1312 is superceded by horn 7743681) or in the August 1951 ORD 8 SNL G-503 (which on page 119 states horn 7743681 should be issued until stock is exhausted, then use horn 7728527 [which is stock no. G-508-7728527, the GMC horn mentioned by Mark Chapin but is an Electric Auto Lite model HY-4001, which may or may not be the same horn as the WW II G-508 GMC round back stubby horn Luca likes so much. What is the brand and model # of the round back short trumpet WW II GMC horn?].

Horn A-17715 also appears in the 1945 Parts List for the CJ-2A, and is shown as superceding horn A-1312 on the CJ-2A, presumably after the factory used up its on-hand stock of A-1312 horns. Both the "A" part number and the appearance in the 1945 CJ-2A Parts List tell me this horn A-17715 had already been released for prodution (use) on the MB. If it had first been issued for use only on the CJ-2A, it would have had a 640XXX part number instead of an "A" part number [which I think of as an "Army" part number]. So, no, the only evidence of use is not the 1951 manual.

W/O documents use the term "service part" and not "replacement part", so when I state "service part" that is what I mean. W/O might have used "service part" as their way of saying what you think of today as a "replacement part", but I have not seen that direct interchangeability in print so I don't use it informally. I'm not trying to be cute, but to align your mind with W/O terminology, you might think in terms of "service parts" for service in the field instead of "replacement parts" which may be the more modern term. I think we are both talking about the same concept, but just using difference words to describe it.

The Production Release Forms (PRFs) are a whole 'nother series of W/O factory documents that document the engineering department approval of use of each part on each vehicle. Only after a part has been released for production would it appear in the BOM for that vehicle. There might have been a two week + or - time lag between the time a part was released for production and the time the applicable page in the BOM had been revised or retyped to include that newly approved part. Remember, during WW II W/O really produced paper. MB's were simply a by product of the paper production process. ;)
Happy Jeep Trails,

Fred Coldwell
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Post by lucakiki » Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:43 am

Fred,now that the thread got running, I can mention again the GMC horn !
To be exact, it is not the horn "that Luca likes so much": it is just that Luca, and a few other fellows with him, in lack of a "by the book horn", is desperate for a plug to use is GMC horn on a far from factory class jeep... :(
Now that a way to keep the jeep police's mouth shut is found, I feel better.
As for the shorty horn debated in this thread, is there a late war picture that can prove its use even before the postwar days?
Luca

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Post by Mark Tombleson » Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:50 am

I don't really want to twist this thread much Fred, but is there any docuentation to show the MB-NB (Navy Basic) was built?

If so maybe one of the features would be this short horn? I have been following this closely... maybe this can show the difference between say a Standard MB that was diverted to the Navy from the Army, ( 1310 MB in 1945 under ORD 33-019-3339) and the MB-NB?
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MB-NB 1/4 ton 4X4

Post by Fred Coldwell » Tue Apr 12, 2005 10:01 am

Mark: I think so. I have some very late war PRFs that include parts for the NB. There are other parts in the LOPN that also are NB parts. But I have not yet gone through those documents with a fine tooth comb to pull together the many small bits of data to get a larger, though incomplete, picture. That task would take a full day at a minumim. If someone would only award me a lifestyle grant to pay my recurring living expenses, I could then devote more time to jeep research instead of earning a living. ;)

So it appears the NB might have been released for production, but whether it was actually built is a different question I probably cannot answer from my present documentation. If I can find the time, I may write a brief article for Army Motors containing current factually based speculation on the NB. The article would be more to excite others to conduct further research than to state with certainity much of anything about the NB, other than it was under active development for the invasion of Japan (my thesis).

Although the PRF lists A-17715 as the MB-NB horn with no indication it is waterproof (perhaps not an important feature), there was another late war 6 volt waterproof horn assembly A-17378 (mfg'r & model not listed) that is pictured on page 6 of the "Installation Procedure - Vehicle Modification Kit MX-725/MR, Deep Water Fording Equipment for Model MB 1/4 ton 4X4 Trucks, Navy Contract NObsr 29091, W/O Form No. A-17645 (undated)". Copies have long been available from Portrayal Press. I think you'd find it of interest. :)
Happy Jeep Trails,

Fred Coldwell
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Post by Alasdair Brass » Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:19 pm

Hi Fred,
I've followed this post and would like to add a small tag to the Schwartz details. I had a very nice early (regular length trumpet as shown in Bob's post but an identical rear body to the late Schwartz horn) and the model numbers were white paint stamped on to the body. This was the only identifying mark on the horn and is the likely reason you found nothing to identify it by.

For what it's worth!

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Schwarze model number stamped with paint

Post by Fred Coldwell » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:50 pm

Al: Thank you for that valuable bit of Schwarze horn information. Now I realize that removing paint is not the way to find a Schwarze model number. I also feel assured that I'm not going blind. ;)
Happy Jeep Trails,

Fred Coldwell
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Re: MB late war 2 inch trumpet Auto Lite horn

Post by Lew Ladwig » Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:16 pm

Fred,
Any further knowledge on the use of the short horn? The horn is one of the last items I need for my May '45 gpw. It has the proper bracket and had a post war horn like what was found on HLA bikes. This thread is the only one that seems to be drilling down on a date for the use of a short horn.
Thanks much,
Lew
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Re: MB late war 2 inch trumpet Auto Lite horn

Post by Fred Coldwell » Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:37 pm

Hi Lew:

Nothing new on late WW II short horns for the Willys MB. I did not discuss horns used on the GPW because I don't have any Ford parts books or Ford factory documents. Although I'm speaking out of school here, for your May '45 GPW I'd stick with the two common long trumpet horns, either a Sparton or a Schwarze.
Happy Jeep Trails,

Fred Coldwell
1944 CJ2-09 - X33
1945 CJ2-26 - X50
1944 Dodge T233 CC
1945 Dodge T233 Utility
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Re: MB late war 2 inch trumpet Auto Lite horn

Post by Lew Ladwig » Sat Feb 06, 2016 6:43 pm

Bam! Super fast response. Thanks Fred. The long horn still works with the grease gun under the hood right?
I hope all is well with you. I am planning on a meet at my shop again soon. The GPW is drivable now. Just need a hood.
Lew Ladwig
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