dating ACM I hood

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
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JAB
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dating ACM I hood

Post by JAB » Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:09 pm

I'm trying to date what appears to be an ACM type I MB hood by features. It has the 9 tab hinge. The grease gun bracket holes have been welded shut and there's evidence that the backing plates may have been carefully ground off at the spotwelds. There are no holes for the lube chart. The hood block holes appear to have been slightly enlarged with a drill as there was a nasty burr on the underside of the hood. They're 4 1/2" apart, on center. There's a hole under each hood block, roughly, but not exactly, halfway between the two hood block holes at 2 3/4” from the rear holes. I've spent some time looking but I haven't found any reference to hoods with grease gun brackets but not lube chart holders. Fred Coldwell posted this (below) on the lube chart but I couldn't find anything similar concerning the grease gun. I know the grease gun bracket was not on the very early jeeps, but knowing when it appeared would narrow the date of this hood quite a bit. It's on a jeep salad with (according to the tub number) a Sept. 44 body and similar era frame. The exterior of the body was once sanded to bare metal so there's little hope of finding the USA number. The entire seam of the hood was also welded together. I'm trying the shrink the main area to stop the oil-canning whoop-whoop!
Fred Coldwell wrote:
Sun Jan 25, 2015 12:41 pm
The Willys factory Production Release Form (PRF) for the Lubrication Guide Chart Holder A-12716 states it was first installed (on the inside of the hood) on the MB jeep having serial number MB-387532 and was last installed on the MB jeep having serial number MB-438052. It was installed on ALL MB jeeps between (and including) these two serial numbers, including Navy jeeps and Navy radio jeeps like the MZ-2. If your MB falls within this serial number range, it had a lube chart holder installed at the factory. If your MB falls outside this serial number range, it did not have any lube chart holder installed at the factory. Lubrication Chart Guide No. 501 was placed in this holder. It was a 9-3/4" x 15" laminated chart with a metal trim edge that kept it flat and rigid.

The Lubrication Chart Guide holder A-12716 was discontinued because rigid Lubrication Chart No. 501 was replaced by folding Lubrication Guide LO 9-503, which was folded and stored inside the glove box or inside the Maintenance Manual that itself was stored inside the glove box.

Sorry, but I have no information about the use of the Lubrication Guide Chart Holder on the Ford GPW jeep.
Here's a cell phone picture of the hinge and deflector if that helps. Thanx!
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Last edited by JAB on Sun Mar 18, 2018 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: dating ACM I hood

Post by JAB » Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:48 am

OK, it took a while, but I found it: http://g503.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f= ... ed+to+hood

So, the grease gun holder was added around May/June of '44 and the lube chart holder in November of '44, so that dates this hood to basically the summer of 1944. With my toe-board gusset number dating the tub to Sept. '44 i guess this hood can stay with the tub. I had thought that it might be too early, but I guess not.

In comparing this hood to others that I have I've found several minor differences that I haven't seen mentioned here on the gee. I'll try to post some pictures that may help date certain hoods, which in turn may help date USA registration numbers as far as indicating whether a given hood could have come with a given tub or not.
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Re: dating ACM I hood

Post by JAB » Sat Mar 17, 2018 12:09 pm

LOL! This is driving me crazy! I measured three hoods that I have handy and all three have different mounting holes for the hood blocks. One has 6 holes for the grease gun that appear original, and the hinges and "bumps" behind the hat-channel rear brace even differ between them. I want to repair the hood block holes in the "original" one I mentioned but I can't even figure out which ones are correct and which ones to fill in. Why so many variations on a simple hood!?
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Re: dating ACM I hood

Post by Chuck Lutz » Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:15 pm

Jeff....perhaps it is as simple as at some point in time the original wipers were changed from dual-hand operated to vacuum? I would ask guys who have those hoods with vacuum wipers on them to measure the hood blocks and see if any are corresponding. In addition, I would suggest you get the on-center measurements for the two holes for each hood block and compare them to yours as it is possible that a Bubba-fix or some non-original hood blocks were installed at some point in time.
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Re: dating ACM I hood

Post by JAB » Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:24 pm

Thanks Chuck, but I answered some more of my own questions and re-discovered something really interesting, at least to me. First, The hoods I was comparing to were F-marked. The script "F" on each of the two hinges I looked at differ so much that I may save that for a new thread some day, but that may be the reason for the different hood block locations. Then, I looked at the pile of parts I removed from the jeep and remembered what I removed....it turns out that somebody used axle bump stops, with the rubber cut down, as hood blocks. When I figured that out I immediately welded the extra holes shut and welded and re-drilled the other holes in the proper size. Then I moved to the "grease gun" mount. I found a grease gun thread where somebody referred to it as a fire extinguisher mount. Sure enough! The six hole pattern matches the holes on my fire extinguisher with the mounting feet! So whoever welded them shut did me a favor. Now here's where it gets really interesting. This hood has been with this jeep for a very long time, based on the matching layers of paint, but it pre-dates the tub (no grease gun bracket, no lube chart holder, and 9-tab hinge). The jeep is a jeep salad and I'm trying to make things as right as possible with parts I already have. Since the other body panels were all sanded to bare metal, at least on the exterior surfaces, I didn't take much care when "grinding" off the 1/8" thick layers of accumulated paint....until I started to see yellow, and then white. When a previous owner welded the entire hood seam all the paint was burnt off the middle, so the invasion star paint preceded that weld. same for the fire extinguisher hole weld job. I hope to carefully reveal the USA registration number from the unwelded side next week when I have time, but I already discovered a number painted over another number, so who knows what I might find. Since I've had this jeep for over 25 years, and it was sitting for many years prior to that, and for other reasons, I think this invasion star is very likely from its time in service, and this hood possibly installed during a re-build program. Could this jeep (or at least the hood) have served in a theater where that star and the (yellow circle interior) was "real"? I know a few came back, but what are the odds? And what's that circle in front of the most recent "USA" and what's in the circle?
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Re: dating ACM I hood

Post by majmacs » Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:33 am

That hood is awesome.
What is the small white circle next to USA?
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Re: dating ACM I hood

Post by JAB » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:48 am

majmacs wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 3:33 am
That hood is awesome.
What is the small white circle next to USA?
Patrick
I agree! I'm trying to figure out what's in the circle. There doesn't appear to be one on the passenger side, but I will be much more careful now and try to find out.

Also, part of the word "Prestone" followed by a number? is in yellow stencil on the underside.
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Re: dating ACM I hood

Post by JAB » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:05 pm

I couldn't wait. I'm not certain (yet) that the first three numbers are 208, but the others can actually be verified because the original blue drab numbers are causing a "shadow" image in the correct location but under the existing paint. Notice that the guy doing the white stencil job must have worked backwards from the windshield hold-down clip and ran out of room on the passengers side! I imagine the first digit was on the cowl, but the cowl was sanded to bare metal before I got it, and besides, I don't believe that the hood is original to the tub.
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Lest you think I was kidding about the paint being an 1/8" thick, check out the pile of paint dust that fell on the floor nearby. Believe me, a similar amount went airborne and is everywhere! It did not all fit in the dustpan!
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Re: dating ACM I hood

Post by JAB » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:14 pm

Found them! The "shadow" of the original blue drab numbers actually showed up better than the big white numbers when the flashlight was used to create shadows. USA 20340945 The one thing haven't I proven yet is whether or not there were periods after the letters. I think my '45 GPW had periods. I found the "U" so I should be able the figure out where the period should be, if there is one.

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Re: dating ACM I hood

Post by 70th Division » Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:28 pm

JAB wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:24 pm
Thanks Chuck, but I answered some more of my own questions and re-discovered something really interesting, at least to me. First, The hoods I was comparing to were F-marked. The script "F" on each of the two hinges I looked at differ so much that I may save that for a new thread some day, but that may be the reason for the different hood block locations. Then, I looked at the pile of parts I removed from the jeep and remembered what I removed....it turns out that somebody used axle bump stops, with the rubber cut down, as hood blocks. When I figured that out I immediately welded the extra holes shut and welded and re-drilled the other holes in the proper size. Then I moved to the "grease gun" mount. I found a grease gun thread where somebody referred to it as a fire extinguisher mount. Sure enough! The six hole pattern matches the holes on my fire extinguisher with the mounting feet! So whoever welded them shut did me a favor. Now here's where it gets really interesting. This hood has been with this jeep for a very long time, based on the matching layers of paint, but it pre-dates the tub (no grease gun bracket, no lube chart holder, and 9-tab hinge). The jeep is a jeep salad and I'm trying to make things as right as possible with parts I already have. Since the other body panels were all sanded to bare metal, at least on the exterior surfaces, I didn't take much care when "grinding" off the 1/8" thick layers of accumulated paint....until I started to see yellow, and then white. When a previous owner welded the entire hood seam all the paint was burnt off the middle, so the invasion star paint preceded that weld. same for the fire extinguisher hole weld job. I hope to carefully reveal the USA registration number from the unwelded side next week when I have time, but I already discovered a number painted over another number, so who knows what I might find. Since I've had this jeep for over 25 years, and it was sitting for many years prior to that, and for other reasons, I think this invasion star is very likely from its time in service, and this hood possibly installed during a re-build program. Could this jeep (or at least the hood) have served in a theater where that star and the (yellow circle interior) was "real"? I know a few came back, but what are the odds? And what's that circle in front of the most recent "USA" and what's in the circle?
Image
Image
Hello Jeff,

I just looked at this link of yours !!
Wow I must have missed it before, but that is an awesome hood, and I would say definitely an ETO return, likely landing in Normandy, with that special gas detecting paint.

Really an incredible discovery Jeff !

Many jeeps did get shipped back to the USA after the war by surplus dealers, starting right after the war.
I will say yours is one of them.

Many year ago, here on the G there was a jeep for sale in I think Washington or Oregon, that had a aqua green paint peeling off of it, that had a hood just like yours, and I have no doubt was an ETO return !!

I could see the large Invasion star under the peeling paint.

I should have bought it at the time !

Is this on the jeep you just finished ?


Also, how did you go about removing the weld seam on the center of the hood ?
I have the same issue on my 45 MB :shock:


Best Regards,
Ray
Last edited by 70th Division on Thu Jul 07, 2022 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: dating ACM I hood

Post by Ian Fawbert » Thu Jul 07, 2022 2:47 pm

see post below. I double posted!

Ian.
Last edited by Ian Fawbert on Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: dating ACM I hood

Post by Ian Fawbert » Thu Jul 07, 2022 3:19 pm

Hi Jeff,

In my mind, a time frame of different hoods used on the MB exists in these styles (chronological in my mind, but unlikely correct!)

1.
- MB style hood (by hinge and pressings)
- low windscreen 'longer' catches- hole spacing further away than rest of production.
- rubber hood blocks
- deflector, round head screws
- likely evidence on hinge of VERTICAL type 1 suppression bond straps


2.
- MB style hood (by hinge and pressings)
- standard windscreen catches
- rubber hood blocks
- deflector, round head screws
- likely evidence on hinge of VERTICAL type 1 suppression bond straps


3.
- MB style hood (by hinge and pressings)
- wooden hood blocks- NO webbing. Unsure of mounting hole spacing front to back compared with rubber or solid wood.
- deflector, round head screws
- likely evidence on hinge of VERTICAL type 1 suppression bond straps


4.
- MB style hood (by hinge and pressings)
- wooden hood blocks- WITH webbing. Unsure of mounting hole spacing front to back compared with rubber or solid wood.
- deflector, round head screws
- likely evidence on hinge of VERTICAL type 1 suppression bond straps


5.
- MB style hood (by hinge and pressings)
- wooden hood blocks- WITH webbing
- with grease gun bracket
- deflector
- likely evidence on hinge of VERTICAL type 1 suppression bond straps


6.
- MB style hood (by hinge and pressings)
- wooden hood blocks- WITH webbing
- with grease gun bracket
- deflector
- likely evidence on hinge of ANGLED type 2 suppression bond straps VS vertical bond straps.

7.
- ford style ACM 2 hood (by hinge and pressings), no F, appears at the beginning of ACM2 production
- wooden hood blocks- WITH webbing
- with grease gun bracket
- NO deflector- dropped with intro of this style ACM2 Ford hood.
- likely evidence on hinge of ANGLED type 2 suppression bond straps VS vertical bond straps.

8.
- ford style ACM 2 hood, no F continues
- wooden hood blocks- WITH webbing
- with grease gun bracket
- with lubrication chart holes
- NO deflector.
- likely evidence on hinge of ANGLED type 2 suppression bond straps VS vertical bond straps.

9. (back to same as 7?)
- ford style ACM 2 hood, no F continues
- wooden hood blocks- WITH webbing
- with grease gun bracket
- back to NO lubrication chart holes
- likely evidence on hinge of ANGLED type 2 suppression bond straps VS vertical bond straps.


10.
- ford style ACM 2 hood, no F continues
- wooden hood blocks- WITH webbing
- hood block MOVED to accomodate vacuum wipers?
- with grease gun bracket
- NO lubrication chart
- likely evidence on hinge of ANGLED type 2 suppression bond straps VS vertical bond straps.


11 > end of MB production.
- F script GPW late war style hood
- wooden hood blocks- NO webbing. Unsure of mounting hole spacing front to back compared with rubber or solid wood.
- hood blocks MOVED to accomodate vacuum wipers
- with grease gun bracket
- NO deflector
- likely evidence on hinge of ANGLED type 2 suppression bond straps VS vertical bond straps.



The other anomaly I can add is the GPW using the ACM1 hood, which also had the deflector but used pan head screws.


I accept that from about hood 6 or 7 above onwards to 11, that I may be wrong on features and I don't know exact timing... but thought it worth starting the chat! A read in Lloyd White's books (if I can find where I put volume 2 again) coupled with Fred, Mark's, Tom, Keith and other's data here on the G will fill gaps I`m sure.

Cheers,
Ian.
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Re: dating ACM I hood

Post by JAB » Thu Jul 07, 2022 6:32 pm

Ray, that jeep is now in the hands of a guy that uses it for movie scenes and reinacting. It's an October '44 MB that I sold a couple of years ago so that I could concentrate on a GPW. The seam was gas-welded for the entire length of the hood. I cleaned up the weld a bit and then left it as it didn't make sense to grind it all off only to weld in a new edge just for looks on the underside of the hood.

Ian, don't forget that Ford gave/sold/loaned many body stamping dies to ACM to make the ACM type 2 bodies. As a result early CJ2A's have F-stamps on their hinges with a waffle stamp to obscure the F.

https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/f-sc ... amp#260301

https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/ford ... amp#224838

https://www.thecj2apage.com/forums/f-sc ... amp#194066
Last edited by JAB on Fri Jul 08, 2022 3:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: dating ACM I hood

Post by Scrumps » Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:25 pm

Hi,

We have a Dec ‘42 MB with hood type #3 from the list above.

You can’t get the “wood only” hood blocks (WO-A3780) in U.K.so I made a set out of oak.

Fixing hole centres are 2 5/8” apart and the holes are counterbored 5/8” diam, 3/8” deep.

Scrumps
Dec '42 Willys MB
Aug ‘44 Willys MB
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Re: dating ACM I hood

Post by parker007 » Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:58 pm

Scrumps wrote:
Thu Jul 07, 2022 10:25 pm
Hi,

We have a Dec ‘42 MB with hood type #3 from the list above.

You can’t get the “wood only” hood blocks (WO-A3780) in U.K.so I made a set out of oak.

Fixing hole centres are 2 5/8” apart and the holes are counterbored 5/8” diam, 3/8” deep.

Scrumps
what is your dec 42 serial and dod? i have mb194470 with only frame plate.


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