Using ( burning ) oil

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
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artificer
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Re: Using ( burning ) oil

Post by artificer » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:52 pm

BTW I incorrectly stated there was no such thing as an oversize ring [for a standard bore size].
I remembered there used to be such an animal.
Rings were not as accurately made way back in the dark ages.
Occasionally when checking ring gap one may be too wide & a single oversize standard ring [the ring cross-section was exactly the same] would be selected so one could get or establish the correct ring gap in the unworn portion of the bore.
Rings could be bought singly, not necessarily in kits.
Luc wrote:Am not saying that re-ring a worn cylinder can't be done right...so the mentor set you straight?
Could have fooled me? That's precisely what has been going on, when trying unsuccessfully to rubbish other folks constructive input.
This 0.002" [comes from nowhere] & 0.005" taper stuff is a crock....0.005" out of true in TM 10 1513 refers to ovality not taper. Stating & restating stuff over & over that doesn't exist or is misinterpreted from TM's & publications helps absolutely no-one
John wrote:1. The pistons are 0.060" O/S so what size rings were fitted & what was the ring gap @ the bottom of the bore?
2. What was the taper & ovality of these bores?
3. Were the right [type] rings put in the correct grooves & were the DOT or TOP marks UP I don't think so! That is why the rings in both grooves show the rapid top wear from tilting the wrong way. This will pump oil see in the Mopar article.
4. The bores don't look like they were deglazed properly. If this engine was bored & final honed, it was not done well or properly.
All this stuff about service rings etc. is also a crock & no reason not to deglaze & re-ring a slightly worn engine to get superb performance. It is definitely not a reason the engine being talked about pumped oil....something was assembled incorrectly or wrong parts used end of story.

Rings....soft & hard.
Hard are usually used in new engines & full rebores, They have chrome or other metallic faces & usually have ribbing to hold oil & wear quickly creating a good seal.
Soft are what some are referring to as service rings are more porous [cast iron face] to help wear in quickly & conform to the shape of the worn cylinder.

No one said all rings are equal & frankly using genuine NOS Willys parts is definitely not necessary.
They will not get as good a result as using more modern designs. Aftermarket's like Perfect Circle [including 3 piece oil control rings] are a real good bet.

As far as piston slap goes even with wear these low compression long stroke, long skirt piston, slow revving engines are not any worry, unlike new high compression, short stroke, high revving engines are, where piston pins are offset to counter this potential issue.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.


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Re: Using ( burning ) oil

Post by artificer » Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:23 am

Keep digging it's getting deeper! Why did the engine need re-honing as shown in the latest pictures? LOL.

Why not admit you or whoever did your engine fd'up, because whoever didn't know what they were doing? Mechanic my A!
Members don't need this ongoing incorrect stuff, so why not stop all this argumentative self serving misinformation?

Just like the misinformation in the similarly derailed spring thread, where you argued the point with any number of others who knew fact from fiction & you are now batting on about greasing springs.
Not a service item/lube action in any TM & never done in the military.

A spring shop, if asked, will tell one that Jeep shackle pins & bushes are what are greased, not the spring leaves.
But hey, if one wants to do so, go for it.

As I said in a couple of places earlier & have highlighted alterations:
John wrote:There is absolutely no re-ring myth unless one is intent on establishing same, as IS the case in this thread.
I am really not interested in semantic arguments....where one is only out to demolish the other person, rather than address the topic @ hand.
That is not learning, but confusing & screwing up someone else's thread.

Starting a no re-ring myth is the objective, semantic arguments abound, so I'm out.
John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.

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Chuck Lutz
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Re: Using ( burning ) oil

Post by Chuck Lutz » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:10 am

ENOUGH ALREADY!

Nobody these days just does a ridge-reaming and changes the rings on a jeep engine these days that I know of...you don't know the provenance of the engine, how much oil it DOES burn, are the bearings shot, is the crank scored, blah, blah, blah....

We aren't slapping together farm jeeps we paid $500 for that sat in a shed for 20 years because of SOME problem, we are RESTORING MVs and a proper rebuild of the engine is necessary once it is identified as an oil-burner!

The argument SHOULD be over how much the owner does on the project; does he drop off the engine and pick it up or does he strip it down and send out the components for machine shop services and reassemble it himself or something in between. The discussion should be about who is QUALIFIED to do their own job if they choose the latter and what that entails.

End the pissing match, please!

I'm out too!
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Re: Using ( burning ) oil

Post by Joe Gopan » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:59 pm

There are times when I have a NOS or reconditioned JEEP block upside down on my bench and install the pistons thru the bottom of the block. I also have a piston ring gapping tool for setting the suggested gaps
Luc amazes me with his machine shop and methods of repairing blocks that have faults not shown in TM's or Factory Jeep manuals. If one looks hard enough, there are shops that do similar repairs within reach of your area. Jeep engine repair has gone on since WWII, there are hundreds of good engine repair shops and we are not inventing the wheel. What the do it yourself mechanic needs is a bit of guidance to reduce mistakes and advice about which repairs are best done by professional shops. Engine repair does require special tools and experience a special touch, or just someone to look over your shoulder while attempting to perform engine work for the first time.
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Re: Using ( burning ) oil

Post by adeet » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:07 am

Thankyou , I appreciate all views and opinions expressed here . I'm fortunate to have a friend locally who you might describe as an "old school mechanic" he has offered to help and guide me over this winter project . I will keep you posted as to how it is going and what we are doing with this "oil burner " as it's been described. All and I mean all advise that has been given will be taken on board throughout the course of sorting out the problem , many thanks again

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Re: Using ( burning ) oil

Post by adeet » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:33 pm

I will post pictures as I go 👍

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Re: Using ( burning ) oil

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:21 am

And do not hesitate to follow the excellent posts by John Barton on rebuilding the Jeep engine.
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HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
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Re: Using ( burning ) oil

Post by adeet » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:00 am

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Re: Using ( burning ) oil

Post by adeet » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:09 am

As you can see the head is off Having problems transferring pics from my iPad to here as it tells me the file is too large !! I know less about iPads than I know about engines and we all know how little that is !! Anyhow the carbon build up or deposit that is in the picture I have managed to get on here is all over the valves piston heads

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Re: Using ( burning ) oil

Post by adeet » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:14 pm

What is going to be the best approach to getting this cleaned up ( brake cleaner / cloth /plastic scrapper ) and loads of elbow grease!!

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Re: Using ( burning ) oil

Post by adeet » Fri Dec 01, 2017 8:59 pm

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Re: Using ( burning ) oil

Post by adeet » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:07 pm

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Re: Using ( burning ) oil

Post by Fabrizio » Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:27 pm

@Luc:
Maybe a stupid question, but what causes the noticeable color/aspect difference on the upper side of the cylinder walls? Is that just the rings travelling over the honed surface during assembly?
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Re: Using ( burning ) oil

Post by dpcd67 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:32 am

I'd say it was a ring groove depth gauge, shallow and deep? When I did that 251 Flathead I was too dumb to measure much of anything. I did plastigage the bearings and I put new standard ones back in. That engine runs great, but I only run it once a year.
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Re: Using ( burning ) oil

Post by artificer » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:13 am

John GIBBINS Member Institute of Automotive Mechanical Engineers [Ret], ASE Master Medium/Heavy Truck & Auto Technician USA -2002 Licensed Motor Mech NSW MVIC 49593 Current 2015
TO DIAGNOSE, TROUBLESHOOT OR FAULT FIND ANY AUTO SYSTEM....
Understand how system parts interact with one another. GOOD parts can then be established & the NOT GOOD problem/s part/s isolated for repair or replacement.


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