Felt spacers in transfer case seal and gasket kits

1941 - 1945, MB, GPW Technical questions and discussions, regarding anything related to the WWII jeep.
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Felt spacers in transfer case seal and gasket kits

Post by Michael O. » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:35 pm

The new transfer case seal and gasket kits come with a felt spacer that is suppose to be placed between the output shaft paper gaskets and the oil seals...both on the front and rear bearing cap housings. On the original transfer cases I have disassembled I haven't noticed the use the felt spacer. Is this a modern remedy to help mitigate oil seeping out from between the oil seals and the yokes? I've assembled a transfer case already using the felt spacers but was wondering what their purpose was since the originals I have seen don't seem to use them. My '44 dated TM 9-1803B doesn't show this spacer either. I gather that there is a benefit to using them....so should I continue to do so? I do wish to mitigate any future and potential oil leaks from my transfer cases!

I wish to add that the kits that Ron sells do include double lipped oil seals....which I think are far surperior to the traditional single lip seals.

Thanks!
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Re: Felt spacers in transfer case seal and gasket kits

Post by artificer » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:28 am

FI:
Original parts & often left out.

The felt is meant to fit in the steel dish attached to the output yoke/flanges.

It stops dust/grass etc. ingress to the seal & it's running surface causing wear & oil leakage.

It is important the bore the oil seal fits into is not damaged.

If the seal is not coated, usially green or red, use aviation type sealant between the seal & bore.
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Re: Felt spacers in transfer case seal and gasket kits

Post by Wolfman » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:46 am

The felt is not a spacer and does not go between the paper gasket and seal.
Gasket. Seal. then felt if you choose to use it.
Personally. if you have the double lip seal, the felt is not necessary. The front lip of this type seal acts as a dust and dirt seal to protect the oil seals inner lip.
Back in the beginning, oil seal lips were made of leather, with no front lip. Enter the felt ring. It was the dust seal and like John said, it protected the inner lip from the outside world.
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Re: Felt spacers in transfer case seal and gasket kits

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:17 am

It's called a "Dust Seal", it is elusive to look up' it morphed into 811687 (SP-330152) in the 50's. It does exist for the MB/GPW. National used to include it and the paper gasket with the Oil Seal.
I'll research it when I get a chance.
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Re: Felt spacers in transfer case seal and gasket kits

Post by Michael O. » Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:22 am

Eureka! I don't know how I missed the correlation between the felt piece and the slot in the dust shield dish. Everything makes perfect sense....knew I could count on you guys!!!
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Re: Felt spacers in transfer case seal and gasket kits

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:48 am

To find the original Willys Part Number, it probably be traced to the Willys Drawing for 811687 and there would be a footnote indicating that 811687 replaced former Part No. XXXXXXX. The dust seal is tricky to find, I may have written it in the "Notes" page of my National Oil Seal Interchange manual. It's been over 20 years and I always had plenty of Jeep Gasket and seal sets to borrow the felts from. They did exist in WWII.

The 811687 "Dust Seal" was listed in the CJ manuals of the 50's- was listed in the CJ-Parts lists of the 50's thru 70's and the M-38/M-38A1. Do not use any sealant on them, they are just there to trap dust and grime
Last edited by Joe Gopan on Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Felt spacers in transfer case seal and gasket kits

Post by Michael O. » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:41 pm

Wolfman wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:46 am
The felt is not a spacer and does not go between the paper gasket and seal.
Gasket. Seal. then felt if you choose to use it.
Ok, so it's not suppose to go into the slot in the front output shaft metal dust shield on the yoke, or in the small ring around the rear output shaft companion flange....rather it should be slid "on top" of the oil seal inside the gearing cap?

I understand that they are not necessary with the use of a double lip oil seal....but would it do any harm if I decide to use them in conjunction with double lipped oil seals? Bantamj mentioned that it does more harm than good? Can you elaborate?

I know this is getting trivial but I just want to do my current transfer rebuilds correctly so I don't have to go back a few years from now and do them over again. It's been 10+ years since I rebuilt my GPW's transfer case and I don't remember what I did....probably put the felt under the seal... :oops:. Thanks to all who have responded so far!
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Re: Felt spacers in transfer case seal and gasket kits

Post by Joe Gopan » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:18 am

Bantam has a good point, but Jeeps operated in ideal situations will have no issues, for those of you who may go fishing and wade small streams or on mud runs the felt could retain more grime and moisture than ideal. I have been replacing the felt when available on Jeeps since the 50s, this is when CJ-2A's thru CJ-5's were daily drivers and did note occasional moisture erosion on companion flanges and yokes. The same went for Jeeps I serviced in motor pools. Fresh surplus M-38 and M-38A1 Jeeps I serviced would also display the same pattern. My guess is that it was a 50/50 issue with jeeps.
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Re: Felt spacers in transfer case seal and gasket kits

Post by Wolfman » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:43 am

Using a felt washer with a double lip seal is like pulling double duty. Two pieces trying to do the same job on top of each other in the same space.
The felt pressed in on top of the dust lip on the double lip seal put extra pressure on the lip causing it to fail prematurely.
I have been of the opinion the felt was included in the gasket set because it was there originally but with a double lip seal, not necessary and I do not install a felt washer with a double lip seal. And have no problems.
Double lip seals are common in Ag and Construction equipment applications and perform very well in these much dirtier conditions than your transfer case will ever be in. With out any additional protection.
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Re: Felt spacers in transfer case seal and gasket kits

Post by Joe Gopan » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:53 am

Spicer had a good idea. Those of you using those double lipped seals must have a source or a part number to share. The common National and Chicago Rawhide Seals offered under the Willys Part Numbers will yield seals of poorer quality seals than offered 20 years ago.
Rockwell may have a double lip seal that fits.
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Re: Felt spacers in transfer case seal and gasket kits

Post by Wolfman » Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:19 am

I have come to the conclusion, in this day and age, every thing is a battle between technology, government and external pressures, demand and accountants.
Back in the day, it was just demand and the accountant. And dealing with the technology at that time.
For the most part, the technology has improved.
The accountant is still a major player, as is demand, although the attitude these days seems to be focused more on Junk & Replace instead of repair.
As for the rest, I will quite while I am ahead of the " Big D ". :D
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Re: Felt spacers in transfer case seal and gasket kits

Post by Joe Gopan » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:15 am

Looks like the choice of installing what was a factory installed Felt Dust Seal or not installing the Felt Dust seal is sort of a matter of personal preference-let your conscience be your guide. :wink:
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