T84 transmission woes - _UPDATED_

[wc56daveyboy]

thanks Chuck.

So.. then my reverse idler gear IS in CORRECT then, right?

It looks to be just like yours... the "HUB" faces the inside of the transmission case.

ok.. now where to look then?

[wc56daveyboy]

I took yet another video for you all today..

as I was moving the gear around in there manually, I decided to take a video showing the clearance in the brass syncro rings.

tell me your thoughts: too much gap and clearance/ or acceptable?

Dinof wrote:

Code: Select all

What do we have left? 

1. Syhncro assembly. Extreme gap in rings to other surfaces

Could this large gap be a contributor to my noises as well?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlFvGsm0c0c

[dinof]

Your OK there. Those clearances will not cause any noises. Sorry you wasted the time videoing it.

[wc56daveyboy]

No problem!! A very good suggestion of where to look, and now one to dismiss I guess
Your thinking?

So.. my reverse idler.. seems to be in the proper orientation, yes?

[Chuck Lutz]

I feel the CORRECT slop on the 3rd gear blocking ring should match that of the 2nd gear blocking ring...gusti has that in his you tube videos.

[dinof]

I feel the CORRECT slop on the 3rd gear blocking ring should match that of the 2nd gear blocking ring...gusti has that in his you tube videos.

Not always the case. You can come close but not exact. The more you get it the same, the more you put a bind/drag on the main & input shafts.......
Close is good to go, and no bind.

Your idler gear is installed correctly, no doubt about it. So lets forget about that idea.

It's time to get the trans out and take it back to the mechanic.

[artificer]

....check what the clearance is between 1/R sliding gear & reverse idler when in NEUTRAL & let us know.

Those pics are not showing 1/R sliding gear in N but with 1st selected.
Remember there was no noise in 1 or R just when 1/R sliding gear is in N.
Please show a pic of the 1/R sliding gear in N. The position it would be in with the slight noise in N, more noise in 2 & additional noise in 3.
That sliding gear N position is what is important, as is the counter gear positioning, especially now we know the reverse idler is fitted correct way round.
It should be located midway between with clearance from both, the reverse idler & 1st on the counter gear, when neutral is selected.

[dinof]

A messy way to diagnose this would be to fill the trans with oil and start it up without the tower on, with the transfer case in neutral, in second gear and try to pinpoint the noise. To minimize the mess of oil going all over your floor boards, and garage floor, you would have to put some cardboard around the top to keep the oil from going everywhere. Maybe then the noise can be spotted.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smm_F0T ... q78bmUsM_Z

[wc56daveyboy]

whoa! that is messy!

John: I took a few pics as you asked, with 1st/reverse sliding gear in neutral, and see if I can see any slight interference with this gear and the reverse idler.

these pics where indeed hard to take, I tried with flashlight on and off, but shadows and camera didnt cooperate, but here they are anyway.
Transmission was drained for this.

In any case, the sliding gear and reverse idler DO NOT TOUCH whatsover. so thats not the problem even though all prior conditions and diagnosis points to this being perhaps the most likely.. but it appears it isnt.

when I drained it, I made sure to have a 100% clean pan to drain into, to see what particles, if any might come out, maybe indicating some sort of grinding of metal.

I seen a very VERY small amount of metal shavings, more like metal dust, it was so fine.. not that I beleive that ANY amount of metal if acceptable, I figured its all new gears and maybe the edges are coming off in its first few minutes of use?

However, as I looked closer to the drain plug, which has a magnet on the end, I got the following metal "whiskers" built up on the magnet
(see pics)

BUT.. there was something else in there. a short piece of metal.. looks like from a very thick washer or shim .. it has a curvature to it, and is flat..
like a shim as I say, or perhaps a retaining snap washer.. not sure.. but it looks like what ever interference is going on in there, its not good.

so Im at a stand still. well, I am just about convinced its time to pull this tranny out and send back.

[dinof]

Those metal fibers on the drain plug don't bother me as much as that piece of snap ring that broke off. Or at least it looks like a piece of snap ring. Keep that piece to show to the mechanic. It will be interesting to find out what is the cause of all this was, so be sure to report back. Wouldn't it be funny if it was just a bad bearing? Well, not really because you have some work cutout for yourself. Be sure to let us know.

[wc56daveyboy]

I'll aggree as well that the metal fillings aren't as disturbing so much.. I thought that might be wear on new parts, etc.

But your right.. that thin piece I found in there appears to be part of a heavy snap ring.

Looking at the videos y'all sent links to, perhaps the snap ring (perhaps "C" on this diagram) holding on the last gear on the main shaft?

Btw: per a number of you suggesting the following, including DinoF:

Dino wrote:

Dino wrote:
If this is true, you should be able to detent the transmission in neutral, 2nd gear & 3rd and visually see the clashing when in each gear. Can you check this?

Guys here's the funny thing in all this checking around thru the insides with the top cover removed:

I could NOT replicate any sounds whatsoever in there manually. I moved every shift fork and every gear about and could not make any noises or see any interferences.

So I'm beginning to think this issue lies somewhere else and not beteeen the reverse idler and sliding gear.

I'll mention this though;

One test I did was depress the clutch and hold it down with a length of board wedged against pedal and inside if drivers seat.

This allowed me to roatate the lower cluster gear set as well..

As I view into the case, its limited in visibility down to the main cluster gear.

But.. I can see the front most large gear teeth and edge facing the inside of the transmission case. That tooth gear edge looks "shiny" to a point like it's wearing against "something"

Perhaps this is where I'm getting my interference? What would it be touching than?
It's not with any of the sliding gears as I can't hear any chipping or grinding when moving sliders manually about in there.

Again it would be the largest gear in the cluster, up against the front of the transmission case that shows shiny wear pattern

[Chuck Lutz]

I believe that there may also be some consensus that the cluster gear is moving fore and aft more than it should...While I doubt you can get a feeler gauge in there to measure the slop on the cluster, I don't think you can measure that by just moving it back and forth with the tip of a screwdriver but...if you CAN move it back and forth a substantial amount that would be a problem. If you can slowly turn the cluster gear and check the BACK where the bronze spacer should be you may find where that piece of metal came from.

Anyway....a complete look at the teeth on all the gears may indicate that piece of metal has been in contact with them as it might have been sloshed around in the case unless it was stuck on the magnetic plug as well...

As I see it you have two options:
1) Just pull it now and give it and the piece of metal to the builder as it is HIS problem
2) Flush out the case and refill and try driving and see if the removal of that piece of metal has eliminated the noise.

The problem with #2 is that it is not that hard to jam that piece of metal (which might have been much bigger to begin with) into the gears and potentially crack or weaken one which will fail next month or next year and by then the builder will not want to take responsibility for the failure.

I think it has to go back....however...when you remove it, check to see if there are more pieces of metal in there....a recently rebuilt T84 is more likely to have a film of gold in the gear oil from the blocking rings wearing in than all those steel particles which to me indicates metal has been grinding away at metal!

[Michael Browne]

daveyboy,

Time to stop the procrastination, pull the trans out and take it back to the builder along with the stray piece you found inside.

Any more playing around in there and he could quite well be within his rights to reject any claim for repairs. This thread started 5 days ago and 4 days ago the builder was of the opinion it would need to go back.... it is not such a big deal to get it out and take it back.

btw, send the tower cover and shift cane as well so he can check all that as well.

Good luck

[wc56daveyboy]

I'm on It Michael.

Body off. Driveshafts off.

Ready to pull it out tommorow.

Trying to get ahold of the builder. He is not getting back to me, sadly.

I assume he and his crew are busy, but it's been since last Wednesday since we spoke.

He is known to be reputable, so hoping this return will work smoothly and am hoping to hear how he wants to handle shipping back to him.

Thanks all... I'll let u all know the outcome of this mess

[dinof]

Indeed make sure you update us on the outcome......Next time your doing it yourself......If I can do it, so can you.