Gear oil for the CCKW

Military Trucks 2 1/2 ton and greater, Wanted, For Sale (NO AUCTION or EBAY), and Knowledge Base

Moderator: kw573

illinois cckw 352
G-Sergeant
G-Sergeant
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:44 pm
Location: Southern IL

Gear oil for the CCKW

Post by illinois cckw 352 » Fri Mar 23, 2018 5:48 pm

Just a poll, what does everyone run in their CCKW for gear oil in the transmission case, transfer case, and differentials? The book recommends SAE 90w gear oil. Looking for recommendations also where one might get SAE 90w. Haven't had much luck. Thank you.
1942 cckw 352.
1944 Clark CA-1 air dozer


mudflap
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:07 pm
Location: SE MI

Re: Gear oil for the CCKW

Post by mudflap » Fri Mar 23, 2018 9:55 pm

Hi Illinois CCKW 352,

Asking that question is like asking 5 painters the best way to paint your car. You will probably get 5 different answers. :) However, I think it's important to remember that not just one painter is right and the other four are wrong. It's just that there is, as the old saying goes, more than one way to skin a cat.

Anyway, here's my $0.02 worth.

Short Answer: I like Chevron Delo ESI 80w90.


Long Answer: Read on...

I live in Michigan. My truck tends to sit a lot, especially in the winter. So, one of the things I looked for in a gear oil was an additive package with a good corrosion inhibiter. Back then, when I looked around, one of the better oils in this department was Shell Spirax HD 80W-90.

http://www.shell-livedocs.com/data/pub ... 896a6.pdf

As I recall, at the time I was able to find some comparisons with other oils, and its corrosion inhibiting qualities were pretty good, plus it had several mil spec ratings, so I figured it must be pretty decent stuff. So... I changed all the differentials, the transfer case and the transmission using Spirax.

Then one day I ran across this article:

http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Transaxle_oil.pdf

The author basically says that it is unwise to use GL-5 rated oils (Spirax HD is GL-5) in older transmissions. Apparently many GL-5 gear oils have sulphur in them which sticks to the metal gear surfaces and helps prevent wear by creating a sacrificial coating that tears off instead on the metal. However, it sticks so well, that on any brass or soft metal parts (such as synchronizer rings), when the coating tears off it takes the top layer of metal with it.

The good news is, the CCKW transmission is unsynchronized - so no synchro rings. The not so good news is that there is a bronze (or brass, maybe) bushing between the 5th gear and the main shaft.

I had just rebuilt a replacement transmission for my truck, and was about to install it when I read this article. I was curious if this could be an issue, so I wrote the author and explained my concern.

He did not answer it directly - per se (in his defense, I doubt that anything short of actual testing could). However, he did recommend using Chevron Delo ESI 80W-90.

https://cglapps.chevron.com/msdspds/PDS ... Format=PDF

Like Spirex, it has a good corrosion inhibitor package, but Delo uses an alternate compound for wear protection. I purchased some and am currently running it in my newly rebuilt transmission with no issues. I have not changed out the Spirax in the transfer case or differentials. I may switch at some future date when I perform routine maintenance on them, but I see no need to change it otherwise.

As a side note, the reason I switched out the transmission in my truck was because 5th gear was very, very noisy. When I pulled the cover off, I could see why. That 5th gear bushing was extremely worn. There is proably like 0.030" or 0.040" of clearance in there (spec is like a tenth of that). Did the Spirax cause this? Very unlikely. That gear was noisy for as long as I have owned the truck. But did the previous owner run a GL-5 oil? Did this cause wear on that bushing? I'll never know. Also, I'm not even sure how durable that bushing is in actual service. Those on this forum with more experience than me can comment.

So, there's my story. I'll bet there are many others with strong opinions on this. I would also be willing to bet that if you use just about any 80W90 GO from one of the major manufacturers, and change it regularly you will be just fine.

That said, perhaps I may over-think things a little... Maybe... :wink: If I ever paint my car I would probably ask like 50 painters for their advice....

Best Regards...

Joe Gopan
Jeep Heaven
Posts: 49841
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:37 pm
Location: Proving Ground

Re: Gear oil for the CCKW

Post by Joe Gopan » Sat Mar 24, 2018 3:51 am

Lubriplate has SAE 90. I use it in my CCKW. It's 'spencive. 35 # Pail (5 Gal) is over $165.00. Nothing's too good for my CCKW. :wink:
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

mudflap
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:07 pm
Location: SE MI

Re: Gear oil for the CCKW

Post by mudflap » Sat Mar 24, 2018 7:42 pm

Hi Ben,

Was looking at the Lubriplate website. They offer several SAE 90 oils.

Is this the one that you use ? (SAE 90 is the SPO266)

https://www.lubriplate.com/PDFs/PDS/6_4-SPO-Series.aspx

Thx.

Best Regards...

Joe Gopan
Jeep Heaven
Posts: 49841
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:37 pm
Location: Proving Ground

Re: Gear oil for the CCKW

Post by Joe Gopan » Sun Mar 25, 2018 5:42 am

I'll look at my pail later.
It's APG 90.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

illinois cckw 352
G-Sergeant
G-Sergeant
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:44 pm
Location: Southern IL

Re: Gear oil for the CCKW

Post by illinois cckw 352 » Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:32 pm

Thank you gentleman for the responses. Both were informative and helpful!
1942 cckw 352.
1944 Clark CA-1 air dozer

Joe Gopan
Jeep Heaven
Posts: 49841
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:37 pm
Location: Proving Ground

Re: Gear oil for the CCKW

Post by Joe Gopan » Mon Mar 26, 2018 5:44 pm

Lubriplate APG-90 meets API GL3, GL-4, and GL-5.
There are cheaper oils such as Sam's club which is watery after a few miles. One gets what they pay for on lower price GO.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

mudflap
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:07 pm
Location: SE MI

Re: Gear oil for the CCKW

Post by mudflap » Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:54 am

Hi Ben,

I checked the data sheet for Lubriplate APG-90.

https://www.lubriplate.com/PDFs/PDS/6_6 ... 0,250.aspx

Since it is a GL-5 rated gear oil, I was curious as to what the primary component was that gives it its EP (extreme pressure) characteristics.

So... I sent them the following question via their "Ask the LubExpert" link:

"Hello,

I noticed that your APG-90 Gear Oil is rated as GL-5. I am looking to use this oil in the transmission of a WWII era truck, which has a bronze bushing supporting one of the gears.

I have read numerous articles relating the incompatibility of many GL-5 gear oils (specifically those with Sulphur based anti-wear compounds), with transmissions containing soft (brass/bronze) components.

Is APG-90 appropriate for this application? "

Their Reply:

"APG-90 contains Sulphur. It is not appropriate for your application. If you are seeking an SAE-90 gear oil which does not have Sulphur and is OK for use on bronze, please consider SPO-255.

Thank you."

So, while APG-90 would be OK for your transfer case and differentials, the manufacturer is saying it should not be used in the transmission. :(

It would be nice to use the same oil for the entire drivetrain. However, in looking at their recommendation regarding their SPO line of oils, they do not seem to have an EP rating. This may not be a factor for the split axles, with their spiral bevel gear sets, but hypoid gears such as in the banjo axle, typically recommend/require an EP rated gear oil. (I recognize, also, that with for the low loads and mileage that most of us typically subject these vehicles to, this probably is not a big deal. However, if I was changing the lube anyway, I would still look for an EP rated oil - but that's just me.)

On a related note, I was just thinking: Do you (or any one else on this forum) know what the composition is of the thrust pad used on the banjo axle? Is it brass/bronze ? If so, I would not be overly concerned about it, since there is normally several thousandths clearence between it and ring gear. But if it is brass/bronze, and again I was changing the lube anyway, I would think about using a non sulphur product.

Lastly, and I'm not trying to drag this out, one other thing to think about with GO selection is seal compatibility - at least for those still running the old leather seals. I can offer absolutely no guidance here, as I have replaced all the leather seals on my truck (which were leaking badly, BTW) with their modern equivalents. If anyone with more experience on this has something to offer, we would be interested in hearing about it.

Best Regards...

Bob

Joe Gopan
Jeep Heaven
Posts: 49841
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:37 pm
Location: Proving Ground

Re: Gear oil for the CCKW

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:00 am

Remember, the CCKW has a sliding gear transmission, no synchros. and I have a good supply of Leather Seals that are installed in all locations of my own CCKW drive train, Jeeps, too. I have sold a few hundred + of G-506, G-508 and G-741, etc power train seals to happy MV owners around the US and overseas, too.
As long as the leather seal is soft and well preserved, age does no harm.
Last edited by Joe Gopan on Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

mudflap
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:07 pm
Location: SE MI

Re: Gear oil for the CCKW

Post by mudflap » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:42 am

Yes, I know.

But it does have this bushing on the 5th gear....

Trans Bushing.jpg
Trans Bushing.jpg (54.29 KiB) Viewed 1471 times

That was my main area of concern, which prompted my question to Lubriplate.

(You keep changing your last post. This is like hitting a moving target. :) So, I am adding this:

As for leather seals, I personally can just not see using them. It would be like going to the doctor and asking for blood-letting. :) There are just soooo many better options available.

The mating surface of every leather seal joint that I have ever taken apart shows signs of corrosion - often very severe. I have never seen this degree of corrosion on older vehicles (50+) with elastomer seals. My thoughts always go back to why you should never store a firearm in a leather holster: The tannic acid attacks the metal. (I emphasize that is just speculation on my part. I have absolutely no data to back it up.)

But that's just me. If others prefer them, or want to use them to maintain the originality of their truck, that is certainly their decision.

Best Regards....
Last edited by mudflap on Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:58 am, edited 3 times in total.

Joe Gopan
Jeep Heaven
Posts: 49841
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:37 pm
Location: Proving Ground

Re: Gear oil for the CCKW

Post by Joe Gopan » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:54 am

Check the LUBRIPLATE Data Book for "APG Series: Heavy-Duty, Extreme Pressure (EP) Petroleum-Based Gear Oils."
"Meets Military specification MIL-PRF-2105E and MIL-L-2105D and API catagories GL-3, GL-4, GL-5, MT-1"

Did you research MIL-PRF -2105E and MIL-L-2105D?
2011 MVPA PIONEER AWARD - MVPA #1064
HONOR GRAD-WHEELED VEHICLE MECHANIC SCHOOL 1960 - US ARMY ORDNANCE SCHOOL(MACHINIST) ABERDEEN PG 1962 - O-1 BIRD DOG CREWCHIEF - 300,000+TROUBLE FREE M-38A1 MILES
LIFE MEMBER AM LEGION-40/8-DAV
7 MIL SPEC MAINTAINED MV'S
COL. BRUNO BROOKS (ARMY MOTORS) IS MY HERO

mudflap
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:07 pm
Location: SE MI

Re: Gear oil for the CCKW

Post by mudflap » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:40 am

Hi Ben

Actually... I did read MIL-PRF-2105 E (1995), which BTW, supersedes MIL-L-2105D (1987).

You can view it online here:

http://everyspec.com/MIL-PRF/MIL-PRF-00 ... 105E_5290/

Now... petrochemical engineering was never one of my strong suits, but it appears that it basically refers to a list of ANSI, ASQC, and ASTM tests that cover things like corrosion, load, gear scoring, viscosity, deposits, temperature stability etc. I confess, I did not try to research all of them... There are quite few... ( However that D808 test using the "bomb method" sounds intriguing... :) )

It also specifies things like sampling, packaging, labeling, and recommended usage based on temperature.

in Section 6 1, it covers intended usage, and among the many listed, it specifically mentions "heavy-duty, non synchronized type 7 and 8 manual transmission". Its not totally clear to me, but does that equate to Class 7 and Class 8 trucks, perhaps? (Maybe an HD truck guy on the site could verify that.) As previously stated, the CCKW transmission is non-synchronized. But it still has that 5th gear bushing - which I suspect may not be in a Class 7 or Class 8 manual transmission.

That said, to me all of the above is purely academic. The manufacturer advises not to use this product for this application. Whenever someone tells me why I should use their product, I probably apply some degree of customer skepticism. But when a manufacturer tells me why I should NOT use their product, I tend to listen a little more closely.

In any case, if you feel comfortable using this product, then continue to do so. Please don't take this as criticism. I'm not trying to nit-pick. Just trying to help you and other HMV'rs on this site make informed decisions.

Best Regards....

Bob
Last edited by mudflap on Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
gerrykan
G-General
G-General
Posts: 9303
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:37 am
Location: Ozark Mountains, USA

Re: Gear oil for the CCKW

Post by gerrykan » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:15 pm

Mudflap,
Thank you for taking the time to post this information.
Roy

mudflap
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:07 pm
Location: SE MI

Re: Gear oil for the CCKW

Post by mudflap » Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:41 pm

Hi gerrykan,

No problem. I have learned SO much over the last several years from all of the contributors on this site.

Glad to pay some of that back :)

Best Regards...

illinois cckw 352
G-Sergeant
G-Sergeant
Posts: 42
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:44 pm
Location: Southern IL

Re: Gear oil for the CCKW

Post by illinois cckw 352 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:29 pm

Thank you fellas for posting the information. I went ahead and got the Chevron 80w90. It seemed like the best bet for me. Got it filled up today but won't take it for a test ride until I get my new front tires mounted on the rims. 8)
Also I know part of the conversation was about leather vs newer types of lip seals. Well I just replaced the two rear output shaft seals on the transfer case with some NOS leather ones so we will see how they fair. The leather was still flexible and not dry in the least bit when I unwrapped the seals. I think they will be okay but time will tell.
1942 cckw 352.
1944 Clark CA-1 air dozer


Post Reply

Return to “Trucks 2 1/2 ton +”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 47 guests