CCKW Rear Spring Trunnion Seal Question

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mudflap
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CCKW Rear Spring Trunnion Seal Question

Post by mudflap » Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:09 pm

I am in the process of removing the rear spring seats, and servicing the trunnion bearings. I will be replacing all four u-bolts, as they have started to neck down in the area where they enter the spring seat. Looks like the design of the spring seat is optimized to collect dirt and water, which apparently has accumulated over the years, leading to corrosion of the u-bolts. Will dissemble and inspect springs as well, to see what they look like.

I have a question concerning the seal that goes between the spring seat and the trunnion shaft. The diagram in my ORD 9-G508 (Apr '45) shows the seal that is currently on my truck - a large felt washer sandwiched between two steel washers.

However, Group 1601 lists an "Oil Seal, Rear Spring Seat Bearing", PN 2199398 (which is also part of a set, PN 2200650). I am picturing this as perhaps a replacement seal, that seats on the trunnion shaft and has a rubber sealing service on the OD of the seal, contacting the ID of the spring seat? Since the seal has to go on before the bearing, that's the only configuration that I could see work, right?

If so, does anyone know of a current source for that seal? Have not had much luck locating it, or its cross referenced counterparts (CR, Timken, National, etc.)

In lieu of that seal, can I just replace the felt one that is in there? Thinking about maybe getting some equivalent felt from McMaster Carr, and cutting out my own seal. It just has the keep dirt and an occasional splash of water out. I don't plan on running it submerged.

Any thoughts?

Best Regards...


Joe Gopan
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Re: CCKW Rear Spring Trunnion Seal Question

Post by Joe Gopan » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:16 am

There are two trunion seal set ups, early (with felt) and a later type. They are difficult to find. I have not sourced any in USA for years, and know of no suppliers having them in stock. Jack Tomlin was my last supplier. Plenty in Europe tho , you may want to go that route. I am out of the kits.
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mudflap
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Re: CCKW Rear Spring Trunnion Seal Question

Post by mudflap » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:39 pm

Thx, Ben.

I will make some enquiries.

Best Regards...

kw573
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Re: CCKW Rear Spring Trunnion Seal Question

Post by kw573 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:30 pm

Similar issue, different truck . . . .

I was/am not happy with the same issue on my Diamond T 969, a very similar spring seat arrangement.
Seems it was originally a felt 'retainer', but the trunion is made to hold oil which, of course, leaks out very quickly. A very common post-war modification is to add grease nipples which, to me, will give only mediocure lubrication without considerable effort to ensure proper distribution of the grease. As I am hoping ideally (and vainly?) to have very little/no oil leaks, I have fitted custom 'O' rings made from 1/4"dia 'O' ring cord. But they still leak too much oil for my liking.

So, has anyone attacked this leaking issue on this type of spring seat arrangement? How did you manage to make it behave, ie., well lubed with little/no loss of lubricant? Is there a very thin profile lip-type oil seal that I may fit with little or no modification?

I know, slightly off topic.

Sam.
1942 Script GPW (Daily driver).
MB-T trailer.
Diamond T 969. ('The Glorifier')
Diamond T 969, rusty, complete, for sale.
Kenworth M1A1 Heavy Wrecker x 2.
M2A1 white HT. ('Clarrie')
Light Recovery Trailer (Ford?).
3ton GS (Blitz) Trailer.
150gal water tanker trailer.
Air compressor trailer, 100c.f.m.

BACON
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Re: CCKW Rear Spring Trunnion Seal Question

Post by BACON » Sat Oct 07, 2017 7:01 pm

I have trunion seals

kw573
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Re: CCKW Rear Spring Trunnion Seal Question

Post by kw573 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:22 am

For CCKW?

Are they a lip type seal?
If so, what is their ID and OD? If that is not too much trouble, please.

If not, what type of seal are they?

Curiously,
Sam.
1942 Script GPW (Daily driver).
MB-T trailer.
Diamond T 969. ('The Glorifier')
Diamond T 969, rusty, complete, for sale.
Kenworth M1A1 Heavy Wrecker x 2.
M2A1 white HT. ('Clarrie')
Light Recovery Trailer (Ford?).
3ton GS (Blitz) Trailer.
150gal water tanker trailer.
Air compressor trailer, 100c.f.m.

mudflap
Sergeant Major of the Gee
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Posts: 356
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Re: CCKW Rear Spring Trunnion Seal Question

Post by mudflap » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:27 pm

Hi Sam,

Does your Diamomd T use tapered roller bearings in the trunnion, bushings or some other system?

Hi Bacon,

Do you have the seal set (2200650) ?

Best Regards..

Bob

kw573
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Re: CCKW Rear Spring Trunnion Seal Question

Post by kw573 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:56 pm

Bob,
the Diamond T has a simple bushes design.

Image

Image

Image

Sam.
1942 Script GPW (Daily driver).
MB-T trailer.
Diamond T 969. ('The Glorifier')
Diamond T 969, rusty, complete, for sale.
Kenworth M1A1 Heavy Wrecker x 2.
M2A1 white HT. ('Clarrie')
Light Recovery Trailer (Ford?).
3ton GS (Blitz) Trailer.
150gal water tanker trailer.
Air compressor trailer, 100c.f.m.

mudflap
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:07 pm
Location: SE MI

Re: CCKW Rear Spring Trunnion Seal Question

Post by mudflap » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:42 am

Hi Sam,

Interesting... A much better application than the tapered roller bearing design, as long as you can maintain a hydrodynamic film of oil between the two surfaces. From your previous post, it sounds like that cavity is normally filled with oil. Is this correct?

Also, are these cross drilled holes, possibly for helping to distribute lubrication?

969_01.JPG
969_01.JPG (16.83 KiB) Viewed 639 times

Best Regards,

Bob

p.s. Have been following your 969 posts for some time. Greatly enjoy seeing your work. You are a true craftsman...

kw573
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Re: CCKW Rear Spring Trunnion Seal Question

Post by kw573 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:50 pm

Bob,

From memory, they are the feed holes to get the oil from the reservoir to the bushes. There is another pair of holes on the other side. The reservoir is filled with engine oil, according to the TM. I would have thought that a heavy gear oil would have been better, even one of the sticky oils like Morleys or Lucas. Dunno. Less prone to leaking perhaps. I may try that.

Thanks for the kind words. Appreciated.

Sam.
1942 Script GPW (Daily driver).
MB-T trailer.
Diamond T 969. ('The Glorifier')
Diamond T 969, rusty, complete, for sale.
Kenworth M1A1 Heavy Wrecker x 2.
M2A1 white HT. ('Clarrie')
Light Recovery Trailer (Ford?).
3ton GS (Blitz) Trailer.
150gal water tanker trailer.
Air compressor trailer, 100c.f.m.

mudflap
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Sergeant Major of the Gee
Posts: 356
Joined: Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:07 pm
Location: SE MI

Re: CCKW Rear Spring Trunnion Seal Question

Post by mudflap » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:55 pm

Hi Sam,

Been thinking about your Diamond T spring seat seal application.

In looking at the CCKW seal, I don't think it would be good in this type of application. Its design seems aimed more at keeping foreign debris out of the bearing, than keeping oil in.

Seal 2.JPG
Seal 2.JPG (12.58 KiB) Viewed 550 times

I think you are on the right track with your O-ring concept. Happened to run across this document, which has a lot of good information regarding the design of a reliable O-ring type interface. Hopefully it can provide an idea or two that will help on your application.

http://www.applerubber.com/src/pdf/seal ... -guide.pdf

Also, not sure if you have access to Mcmaster-Carr in your area, but they have a huge selection of O-rings of various diameters, thicknesses, and materials

https://www.mcmaster.com/#o-rings/=19yy9fo


Best Regards,

Bob

kw573
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Location: Near Bundaberg, Australia.

Re: CCKW Rear Spring Trunnion Seal Question

Post by kw573 » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:20 pm

Bob,

Thanks for that. An interesting read.
I now suspect that the problem with the Diamond T trunion oil leaks is the surface finish where the O rings run.
Clearly from that PDF document, O rings are an entirely suitable solution as a 'dynamic radial' seal at atmospheric pressure.

But to machine the seal surfaces to 64 (the non-moving parts of the seal) and 32 (the moving parts of the seal) microns finish will be a very big job. If the leaks annoy me too much, I just may do that sometime in the future.

McMaster-Carr will not even deal with overseas customers let alone ship o/s. John kindly acts as my USA agent when I need stuff from them.

Have a nice day.
Sam.
1942 Script GPW (Daily driver).
MB-T trailer.
Diamond T 969. ('The Glorifier')
Diamond T 969, rusty, complete, for sale.
Kenworth M1A1 Heavy Wrecker x 2.
M2A1 white HT. ('Clarrie')
Light Recovery Trailer (Ford?).
3ton GS (Blitz) Trailer.
150gal water tanker trailer.
Air compressor trailer, 100c.f.m.


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