WWII INDIAN MOTORCYCLE?

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WWII INDIAN MOTORCYCLE?

Post by 65shelby » Sun Sep 09, 2012 5:42 am

Hi guys,
I'm looking at buying a this jeep but the guy is selling it as a package with what he says is an Indian WWII motorcycle. I've never even seen one in person so how do I know if it is in fact a WWII bike. Did they have data tags like jeeps? What should I look for? The other question is what is the value? It is in excellent condition but painted red. I just need an idea before I jump in. If there is a good site that can help please let me know. You can PM me or email me at colshlby65@aol.com


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Re: WWII INDIAN MOTORCYCLE?

Post by northcowboy » Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:58 pm

Indian did make motorcycles for the Army in WW2, and WW1. Here is a good picture of a model 741 Indian Military at http://www.flickr.com/photos/mr38/2673091540/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is also one at a store north of here on display, I will ask about it but it looks very much like the one in the picture.

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Re: WWII INDIAN MOTORCYCLE?

Post by sambo42xa » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:42 am

65shelby- I do not know of a "good site" (or info) for the Indian. Since I do not own one I've never needed to look one up! I guess if you just Google it you'll find what you're looking for. Also, if you go to youtube and type in "XA and Indian Motorcycle" it'll show you both bikes very much as they were during WWII. Very cool video. Good luck in your decision of purchasing or not.
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Re: WWII INDIAN MOTORCYCLE?

Post by John Neuenburg » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:09 pm

Indian made several models for various countries in WWII. Best if you post the engine serial number from the left side below the cylinders, and the frame number by the rear axle on the left. Of course photos are always good. If you have difficulty posting photos, email them to me via my link and I can help you.
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Re: WWII INDIAN MOTORCYCLE?

Post by johnseidts » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:37 am

There are four basic models from WWII, in order of their appearance during the war with photos shown or linked below:

Indian Chief, or model 340. 74 cubic inches, flat head, three speed transmission with shifter on the side of the tank. Engine cases should have a boss just below the front cylinder and start with CDA and a 3-4 digit number. The frame will have a boss with 340 and the same number if it is a matching # bike.

Second one that was used was the Sport Scout, or 640. 750 cubic inches, flat head, three speed transmission. Serial numbers start with FDA and a 3 or 4 digit number. The frame will have a boss with 640 and the same number if it is a matching # bike.

The 741 was 500 cubic inches, flat head, three speed transmission. Serial numbers on engines start with GDA and up to 5 digits after. The rear frame will have a boss with 741 and same # if matching number bike. This is most common bike to find.

The 841 was 750 cubic inches but was a transverse V-twin. This means the engine cylinders are oriented across the frame instead of fore to aft. It is four speed, foot shift and hand clutch. These are very rare. Engine case will have HDA and up to 4 digit number (they only made about 1000 of these) and frame will have 841 and same # serial if matching.

340
Image
640
http://www.flickr.com/photos/71477473@N05/7587294234/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
741
Image
841
Image
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Re: WWII INDIAN MOTORCYCLE?

Post by John Neuenburg » Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:58 am

Here is a shot of a 640 without the fairing covering things up. Me in 1987 at an air show. The only non-original items are the tires, lower taillight, Thompson SMG, replica battery with the cool tiny arrowheads making the textured surface.

Image

For Indian newbies the trick is identifying 640B from 741B since they are similar. Obviously use the described serial number ID. From a distance:
741 has a speedo up by the handlebar, front wheel driven. Small nacelle between tanks. No vertical stiffener tube in rear frame loop. Tool box in that area on the right side. Exhaust pipe/muffler is straight. Luggage carrier centered over rear axle like Harleys and 841. Centerstand is rear frame mounted and folds to end of fender. Shifter pivots at the aft end of the tank.

640B has a larger speedo in a larger tank nacelle, like the big twin, rear wheel driven. Vertical stiffener tube in rear frame loop - it's top identifying feature. For that reason the tool box is a vertical, top opening box attached to the chain guard and fender support. Because of that conflict with the normal saddlebag location, Indian build a luggage carrier that sits aft of the rear axle. Centerstand is a 1940-specific cast piece under the tranny with a latch on the left. Shifter pivots below front of tank.

These are the major differences. The 741B was a converted "Junior Scout" and the U.S. military bought only one. Rest went to allies. The 640 was converted from the 1940 Sport Scout (lower compression, smaller carb venturi, but still faster than a Harley! :P. Indian made around 4,400 and I don't know where they went. They were the last 45 inch Scouts except for factory race bikes like 646M (magneto ignition). "B" in the model number means battery-coil ignition.

Despite the production of the 841 being only 960, I believe the 340 or 640 to be the most rare today, in military form. They were converted to civvy use and the Scout was a popular race bike so some were converted to that. Some people preferred the lighter Scout to a big twin, and thought the most beautiful Indian was the civilian 1941 Sport Scout which was the only one that combined a rigid frame with full skirt fenders. So now when you see one of those, look at the frame number for a clue it might actually be a rare military scooter. 641 = civvy, 640 is military or a converted civvy 640.

Indian made a "Bonneville Kit" for the Scout which were race parts - cams, high compression parts, big carb. Some people would also stroke them with a Chief crank to get 57 cubic inches. A Scout can be made to be faster than a Chief because the valve-to-displacement ratio is better and the intake manifold is a "Y" shape, not a "T".
Last edited by John Neuenburg on Mon Sep 24, 2012 7:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: WWII INDIAN MOTORCYCLE?

Post by johnseidts » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:12 pm

The 741B was a converted "Junior Scout"
John,
Nice presentation but I disagree with you about the above statement. Next time you are at an antique motorcycle show, take a good look at a 741 and a late 30's Junior Scout. There are similarities between them, but the 741 was really an original design and is more like a rigid frame Sport Scout than a Junior Scout. Transmission, primary drive, generator drive, frame, tanks, suspension- not Junior Scout. The other issue with this is that the really have no parts in common. The term "Military Junior Scout" was added by antique motorcycle enthusiasts and persists. But in my opinion, the 741 has little to do with the Junior Scout. And I am a big Junior Scout fan- I really want a 37, 38, or 39 project one of these days. The World's Fair paint schemes are really good looking!
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Re: WWII INDIAN MOTORCYCLE?

Post by Michael Browne » Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:54 am

Hey JohnSeidts,

You forgot one Indian model for the war, but you could be excused for that, most went os

The 344 chief, very similar to the 340 but with standard military lights, slim line minimal guards (less metal, more mud clearance) 8)

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Re: WWII INDIAN MOTORCYCLE?

Post by sambo42xa » Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:14 am

All great info and photo's!
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Re: WWII INDIAN MOTORCYCLE?

Post by johnseidts » Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:31 am

You forgot one Indian model for the war
You are right. I just tend to think of those as just another Chief, but they were separately spec'd and built late in WWII.

FYI, on the letter codes for the engines, Indian used them starting in the 1930's. For example, a model was designated, such as the 344. 3 meant Chief, 44 was the year of manufacture. The 344 was translated into CDD on the engine cases. 5 was for Junior Scout, 6 was for Sport Scout, 4 was for the Indian Four, their four-cylinder machine. 7 and 8 were used for the 741 Scout and 841. Prior to WWII, most models were made for a year, then the designation changed over when the new model year came in. So a 1937 Junior Scout would have engine case prefix of ECG with the bike serial number after that. A 1938 would be ECH XXXX. This was stamped on the engine cases on a boss just under the cylinder base on the drive side of the engine (opposite of the distributor). The 741 was built 1941-1943 and the engine cases were all coded GDA so you have to use an approximate serial number list to figure out when your bike was made.
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Re: WWII INDIAN MOTORCYCLE?

Post by 65shelby » Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:32 pm

Well, the guy changed his mind so it's no longer for sale. I gave him my info in case he changes his mind again.

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Re: WWII INDIAN MOTORCYCLE?

Post by John W. Rymark » Mon Sep 24, 2012 5:47 pm

Unfortunate that your guy decided not to sell the Indian and jeep.

Have to agree with above in the the 741 Military Scout is not and not close to a Junior Scout. The engine in fact is a reduced bore 640 (45 ci). Some early 741's even had the 45 inch stoke, but not the bore. If someone restores a 741 you'll see this when you see how much more they can be easily bored. You can bore a 741 to be the same as a 640. 640 and 741 engine cases and engine (not flywheel crank) the same animal. However, if it's one of the majority of 741s it doesn't have the stoke to become a 45 ci.

Sorry John, you are a weath of Indian information, but no sense in perpetuating the myth that a 741 is a junior scout or that the engine is the commonly called 30/50 (30.5). The 741 engine isn't any more the commonly called "30/50" junior scout engine than your 640 except for the common displacement.

http://nicmvpa.smugmug.com/gallery/1461 ... &k=3sT9vkv" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also agree with Micheal that there was another Military Chief, 344, but also the 345 which are the same motorcycle. I bought a very early say Nov/Dec 1944 (by serial) numbers matching 345 which was a war essential police bike now in restoration to be a police motorcycle again. Just an FYI, a 344 or 345 police bike can be distinguished by military style fenders which also not only have a notch cut in the side of the rear fender for the siren but also a bulbous bump indentation forward of the notch in the fender also to accomodate the shaft end of the siren.

Again, appreciate your love of Indians and knowledge John, but we can't let the myths perpetuate, can we? :D
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Re: WWII INDIAN MOTORCYCLE?

Post by John Neuenburg » Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:22 pm

I appreciate the critique and information. Very interesting. I have a few points.
John W. Rymark wrote: Have to agree with above in the the 741 Military Scout is not and not close to a Junior Scout.
I am not a 741 or Junior Scout expert. My knowledge about 741 mostly comes from another "expert" in the 1980s who told me that and it stuck. Probably he was giving me, a newbie, the general flavor of the different models. Like I was doing with the original poster, an Indian newbie. My post was about military Indian recognition for the non-expert. Sorry for perpetuating a myth I didn't know existed.
John W. Rymark wrote: The engine in fact is a reduced bore 640 (45 ci). Some early 741's even had the 45 inch stoke, but not the bore. If someone restores a 741 you'll see this when you see how much more they can be easily bored. You can bore a 741 to be the same as a 640. 640 and 741 engine cases and engine (not flywheel crank) the same animal. However, if it's one of the majority of 741s it doesn't have the stoke to become a 45 ci.
Glad you added the last sentence because it sounded like you were saying the stroke is the same. Wouldn't want to start a myth! I didn't know there were some early 741s with the stroke of a 45/640. Are you saying those had a reduced bore (less than 2.5 inch) to equal the 30 inches?
John W. Rymark wrote:Sorry John, you are a weath of Indian information, but no sense in perpetuating the myth that a 741 is a junior scout or that the engine is the commonly called 30/50 (30.5). The 741 engine isn't any more the commonly called "30/50" junior scout engine than your 640 except for the common displacement.
Please don't say I called the engine a 30/50 because I did not use the term, although my opinion it should be OK to call the engine a "thirty-fifty" (uncapitalized) when it's sitting on the workbench compared to the "forty five" sitting next to it. If I said "Thirty-Fifty" (capitalized) it would have referred to a 1940 or 1941 30.50 inch Indian because that was the model name. But I didn't.
John W. Rymark wrote:Also agree with Micheal that there was another Military Chief, 344, but also the 345 which are the same motorcycle. I bought a very early say Nov/Dec 1944 (by serial) numbers matching 345 which was a war essential police bike now in restoration to be a police motorcycle again. Just an FYI, a 344 or 345 police bike can be distinguished by military style fenders which also not only have a notch cut in the side of the rear fender for the siren but also a bulbous bump indentation forward of the notch in the fender also to accomodate the shaft end of the siren.
Confused - I thought the military contracts prohibited showing the year in the serial number. If that is true then all military Chiefs would be 340. So that police bike should not be termed a "Military Chief," right? It was a police bike as you say. Also I remember reading somewhere the full skirts went away due to metal shortages. No pure styling treatments that used metal. Otherwise a 44-45 police Chief probably would have come with standard skirted fenders like a couple years before. That sound right?
John W. Rymark wrote:Again, appreciate your love of Indians and knowledge John, but we can't let the myths perpetuate, can we? :D
No, that is one of the purposes of these forums. I too look for the truth as you can hopefully see.
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Re: WWII INDIAN MOTORCYCLE?

Post by John W. Rymark » Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:08 pm

John N,

I really appreciate your trying to help the newbie to Indians. Over the last few years I've read and valued your helping all of us with your knowledge of Indian. Yes, absolutely, this is a great place to discuss these great bikes for us to share our knowledge. No harm, no foul and if I'm incorrect I'm open to anyone giving me a hand.

I appreciate we've all gotten information from very knowledgable people over the years. The expert who helped you in the 1980s was trying to help you. For me, I've had information offered to me over the years and sometimes there are minor inaccuracies I've only learned years later. Again, no offense and if I am wrong now, please someone jump in and correct me so we can all learn form this conversation.

You asked; is the original 741 2 1/2 cubic inch bore. Yes. The first 741s, I've read and been told something less than the first 5,000 machines, were 2 1/2 inch bore, but had a 640 flywheel/crank 3 1/2 stroke as these parts were reedily available. Therefore, in reality it was not a true 30.5 inch 500 cc machine, but a little more displacement. If you bore one of these early 741s to 2 7/8 inches it becomes a 45 cubic inch as it has the 45 cubic inche bore and stroke. Most 741s were 2 1/2 inch bore and if, and is easily done with all available metal of the cylinders, bored to 2 7/8 inches (like the 640), but with the 741 stroke of 3 1/16 inches, becomes a 37.5 cubic inch or approximately 616 cc machine (640 is approximately 750 cc). I've done this with my 741 for extra low end grunt and few miles per hour top end (which I won't exploit). My bore stroke information comes from the 1943 741 Operations and Maintenance Manual and the 640 Second Edition Parts Manual. My knowlede of early 741s having 640 flywheels did not come from these sources, but from other sources which appears somewhat common knowledge, but I'll see if I can find this source if possible.

No you didn't call the 741 a 30/50, but with the discussion I hoped to help others with not making the mistake that the 741 and junior scout, both with 30.5 inch displacement are the same bike. The actual junior scout 30/50 was not thought well of and some (not you) refer to the 741 as the ill thought of 30/50. Sorry if you felt I took a hit a you, not intended at all. CONTINUED IN MY FOLLOWING POST.
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Re: WWII INDIAN MOTORCYCLE?

Post by John W. Rymark » Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:25 pm

CONTINUED INDIAN POST

The 344 Frame/CDD Engine and 345 Frame/CDE Engine are the same Chiefs. It is my understanding that with unique high fenders and some modifications were offered to other Allies as military bikes. Now, I can't document that, but I believe that was mentioned to me once by either brother enthusiat, either a NewZealander or Aussie. I will leave that to our New Zelander or Aussie Forum brothers to offer their insights or correction.

Hatfield offered that approximately 1,700 total 344s, production year last quarter 1943 through 3rd quarter 1944, and 345s, product year last quarter 1944 through end of third quarter 1945 were approved by the War Department for issuance as War Essential (Police or justified defense workers) purchase. As 1,700 were direverted to war essential use it might be presumed that other Chiefs during this period went off to war. Perhaps not. Again, open to others additional knowledge/information.

I own an early 345 Frame/CDE Engine War Essential Chief which I'm restoring now. These bikes, documented by Hatfield with pictures were not skirted fender Chiefs. They were open fender Chiefs and mine has the original fenders front and rear. These Chiefs were a very, very dark blue (almost black), white, or "police gray." However, books and period pictures that I've seen are only dark, dark blue, not gray. So, police gray might have been intended, but surviving pictures are dark, dark blue (black & white picturs appear black). As the valanced, skirted fenders were very popular with The Tribe many, perhaps most, of these open fender Chiefs were converted to skirted fenders and open fenders tossed. Now these original open fenders are rare and fore the most part made of Unobtainium (unobtainable). I'm luck to have the origianl open fenders with factory siren notch and bulbus bump to accomodate the wheel siren. ,,,,,,,,,Wioooooh, I've done my best and I'm exhausted. Fortunate for all who read. :oops:
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